w4p2 0 #51 July 16, 2003 Now Powell is a person I admire. Maybe we are lucky to see him as president one day. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #52 July 16, 2003 QuoteMaybe we are lucky to see him as president one day. I don't see him as a good president. As a good #2 man or 'power behind the throne' type, definately.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #53 July 16, 2003 All I want to add to this thread is that I pray for our President and his administration everyday. I also pray for peace in this world. This is truly a very dangerous world with a lot of conflict. We certainly cannot lay the blame at one man's feet. Yes, when it comes to leading this country, the buck stops with the President. Just don't forget, he is still a human being, not perfect. I wonder if the ones who consistently find fault with him ever take a moment and say a prayer for him that he makes the right decisions. It just might do some more good than knocking the guy down every chance you have. Just my .02 and this is not directed at those who don't believe in the power of prayer. Chris _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #54 July 16, 2003 Hmmmmmm, Interesting to see you "Yanks" discussing foreign policy. I grew up in Europe surrounded by nukes (sometimes very close to being used) during the cold war and live now in the Pacific region where the NK issue is a burning issue. I'll be honest with you guys - it is my clear impression that the US population and their political leaders have very little understanding of international issues. a) Because you are not very interested in anything outside the US and b) Because not many Americans have a deeper understanding of the history and cultural issues in the different regions of the world. - and especially watching "Fox News" makes me scared.... (things are not as easy as "the good guys" and "the bad guys" ) When NATO was strong, the US used to at least consult with their allies and get a lot of input and take it onboard. The current administration does not give a damn and whilst I know Americans do not like the French and other Europeans for their opposition to the War, in hindsight a lot of their concerns have come true. Iraq is going to be a very messy affair for a long time and I feel very sorry for the American families loosing loved ones. I also think that the WMD issue shows that the US administration did not do their homework. I supported getting rid of Saddam, but for different reasons (stabilising the region) - but not in the way the US did with a narrow coalition and no idea what to do when the fighting stops. I find both Iraq and Afghanistan have been poorly handled (Where is Saddam, where is Osama - how well is Afghanistan doing?) by the US. Remember all of this was supposed to be a war against Terror?? So when the US is focussing on NK - I am really concerned. They have not demonstrated any understanding of local issues and cultures. And if this is being handled poorly we might have some mushroom clouds going off....... Looking from the outside I was much more comfortable with the foreign policy of the Clinton administration. my 2 C--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #55 July 16, 2003 All I can say is that I pray because of your president almost every day.... well, at least now and then... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #56 July 16, 2003 Don't worry Bill.. Soon enough that plant that is re-processing plutonium will have a freak accident You know. Like the electronics fail and a melt down occurs. Something terrible and weird that fries the whole place. Sit back and watch Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #57 July 16, 2003 > Your quote fails to mention the forced starvation of non-military >personnel in North Korea . . . My quote was directly from the US state department report. So unless you believe our current state department has an interest in making Uzbekistan (our ally) look bad and North Korea (our stated enemy) look good, I think I would go with them. I'm not discounting the experiences of your acquaintances. But if you asked me about Niger I could tell you a lot about the relationship between the Hausa, Zarma and Tuareg tribes but very little about their government - despite spending a month there with Peace Corps volunteers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #58 July 16, 2003 Hi Bill! Sorry for the delay in response. I've been co-tasked to be the power engineer in addition to the ADACS (atttitude, dynamics, and controls for you non techies) engineer on a project with a preliminary design review in two weeks because of a personal emergency on one of my design team bubbas. Screw me. I've spent the night teaching myself some stuff about power systems. I hate power. That and my friend's needle incident have kept me preoccupied. When I get myself down to SoCal I'm going to bring some cigars and good KY bourbon and we'll talk about Africa etc. I LOVED being there and am sure you did too. Between our two perspectives and experiences I'll bet we could formulate a policy towards that continent that would be the envy of Condi Rice et al. Lord knows we've been virtually listless in that arena for far too long. Don't know about you, but I've always wanted to tour Lalibela in Ethiopia.... Anyway, from my own perspective, I disagree with the State Department's assessment. I can't say as I've seen Uzbeks being starved by their government, so despite my being an engineer and not a political scientist, I will not concede this point. You're right - State says so. They do have folks more up-to-date than me on this. Perhaps my one-on-one with NK refugees has skewed my opinion, but from what I've seen, I'll give the NK's an edge in the SOB department. BOTH governments are reprehensible, so it's a matter of who is the least worst. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #59 July 16, 2003 I'm just wondering why u didn't get flamed yet. u have some good points though... but i guess nobody in here want's to talk about the current situation in afghanistan or iraqThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #60 July 16, 2003 Quote>So you're saying that there was no danger or worry until December of 2002? North Korea has been a problem for the past 50 years or so. (There was that war and all.) Up until recently it looked like that problem was contained. The primary threat was their nuclear weapons program, and the IAEA was doing a reasonable job (not great, but reasonable) of keeping an eye on their plutonium enrichment program. That ended in December. There are a lot of threats out there; juggling them is difficult. The threat from North Korea should have gotten way more attention than it did. Calling them part of the axis of evil and then essentially ignoring them while we prosecuted another two wars was foolish. Kinda hard when our so-called "allies" are supplying the DPRK with the technology and materials needed to develop into such a threat."The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #61 July 16, 2003 QuoteThis world is a fucked up place, but then again, it always has been, since the dawn of time. and sometimes USA is the most fucked up part in it. one advise to Bush.try just 6 month whith out a war...i dont think he gets it.. people get killed there,but then again,it must be fun to play a game and read about it in the paper Stay safe Stefan Faber Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #62 July 16, 2003 Quoteone advise to Bush.try just 6 month whith out a war...i dont think he gets it.. people get killed there,but then again,it must be fun to play a game and read about it in the paper I don't think he looks at it as a game. He is very serious about it. That is the scariest part. He needs to be more of a politician and less of a bully, I do agree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #63 July 16, 2003 QuoteAre you glad for just those reasons or also the fact that once again and more so than before it was a showcase operation of effectiveness. Things performed there will be taught at the war college for some time to come. It also shows our resolve as opposed to some the lasts administrations bungled attempts in somalia, etc. Great the US killed thousands so they could teach tactics in war college. Plus it shows they have bigger balls now. Well, that is the best reason to date I ahve seen for this war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scratch 0 #64 July 16, 2003 Interesting thread, particularly the cold shouldering of mikkey's opinion. Americans discussing world politics with Americans. Nobody else invited. No offence guys but there in lies the root of the problem. Nobody else exists for you guys other than as a source of wealth or as a source of irritation. Let's see. You have unfinished business in Afghanistan. You have unfinished business in Iraq Likewise, Liberia, N&S Korea, Libya, Iran, Israel, Somalia, etc. etc. It's a long list, be careful it does not catch up with you. Biting off more than you can chew is a bitch. Oh and if I have been unfair to the reasonable few, my apologies Just my 2 South African cents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #65 July 16, 2003 QuoteInteresting thread, particularly the cold shouldering of mikkey's opinion. Americans discussing world politics with Americans. Nobody else invited. if you decide to take matters in your own hand why should you bother to hear others arguments or thought. why should you ever even consider to listen, when you have an almighty army in your back that blows the shit out of every (imagined) enemy? as long as there are countries (no names) that do not have a slightest problem to do business with the utmost corrupt regime as long as there is some sort af bargain (politics, power, energy - u name it) or influence over a region i will mistrust them. in this case it's the states. the us govnt didn't give a shit abaout sadam, they didn't give a damn on the muslim freaks in afghanistan, the didn't..... the list is too long. the longer i think about it, the clearer the pattrenb becomes: It's reaction and niot action. and i guess in for successfull worldwide politics action – in the sense of longterm, wellthought planning – is way better than bombing a whole nation back to stoneage. that makes a lot of people very uneasy when it comes down to the attitude of the us-president and his followers. to much unrestricted, unquestioned power in the hands of a religious farmer with a cowboy attitude (for the religion thing - i can't find any difference between g.w. and the average muslim fanatic - both think only their way leads to a better life) but i'm only a dumbass european leaningf out of a planeThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #66 July 16, 2003 And don't forget, we freed the children from those horrible children's prisons. ---------------------------- NYT 7/6/2003 'Liberated' Orphanage Searches for Its Children By TYLER HICKS l Rahma, an orphanage in northern Baghdad, was run by the state under Saddam Hussein, but is now run by clerics from the Shiite Muslim town of Najaf. They took control of the institution four days after American forces liberated Baghdad in April. The orphanage had been home to 107 girls and boys whose parents were killed or imprisoned, or were unable to care for them. As the Americans advanced on Baghdad, they mistook the orphanage for a jail or prison and released all the children who were there. . . . ----------------- 7/9/2003 by the Times/UK Families Live in Fear of Midnight Call by US Patrols by Daniel McGrory in Baghdad NEVER again did families in Baghdad imagine that they need fear the midnight knock at the door. But in recent weeks there have been increasing reports of Iraqi men, women and even children being dragged from their homes at night by American patrols, or snatched off the streets and taken, hooded and manacled, to prison camps around the capital. Children as young as 11 are claimed to be among those locked up for 24 hours a day in rooms with no light, or held in overcrowded tents in temperatures approaching 50C (122F). On the edge of Baghdad International Airport, US military commanders have built a tent city that human rights groups are comparing to the detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Remarkably, the Americans have also set up another detention camp in the grounds of the notorious Abu Ghraib prison, west of Baghdad. Many thousands of Iraqis were taken there during the Saddam years and never seen again. ----------------------- I'm sure the people held without trial in Saddam's old prisons are learning the benefits of being out from under the rule of an evil tyrant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #67 July 16, 2003 QuoteAnd don't forget, we freed the children from those horrible children's prisons. Isn't there something in the etiquette about not repeating threads? Quote...Iraqi men, women and even children being dragged from their homes at night by American patrols, or snatched off the streets and taken, hooded and manacled, to prison camps around the capital. Children as young as 11 are claimed to be among those locked up for 24 hours [heavy sarcasm] OK saddam is gone now. All you bad guys be good and don't cause any problems. And if you do cause problems, we will be nice. [/heavy sarcasm] By the time I was 11 I was damn good with a rifle or a shotgun. I was also capable of following instruction, and would have been quite capable of inflicting casualties on an enemy had the US been invaded. Just because they are kids, doesn't mean that they are not as/more dangerous as the adults. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robskydiv 0 #68 July 16, 2003 I concur with you Muenkel. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #69 July 16, 2003 I agree with your point of view Chris. Although do not agree with the current events that has brought Europe against the US, with the exception of Spain, and England. Apparently they all try to accuse and liberate themselves of over a millenium of tragic history of explotation of other cultures. Regardless to what they have to say about this matter, this holds true with most ex European colonies that are currently independent. While they close the doors on everyone else that is not giving them any benefit, such as lets say a plan MARSHALL, now they want to pretend they are the utmost civil culture in the world. It is not that US is perfect, but they are quick to point fingers and forget just a 1000 years of total control of the globe that is and for many years will affect current affairs. Look at Africa, the last colony abandoned, and the current state of affairs, look at the middle east, ????? SO who's fault it is? Well, if you don't have a better solution, and are not pretending to be part of one, you should shut up and step aside, and don't let your ego and feelings of SUPERIORITY take hold of you. SADDAM was helped by many western developed countries, inculding the US, but everyone seems to forget that he has used WMD against people of his own country, and that after years and years of blatant disregard for the UN resolution, France and their nice friends were quick to say that 12 years was not sufficient time to comply. By the way, the main source of Intelligence error was only realized about a few weeks ago, and this was from Italian sources. So yes, maybe there was a lot that was mistaken, but most are against it because now that there are not WMD's found, (I believe that they are still there and probably buried...), Saddam would have still try to stir trouble. just my .02."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #70 July 16, 2003 Quote Americans discussing world politics with Americans. Nobody else invited. Yes, funny that. I did not notice initially.... I always supported a strong alliance with the US, no matter if I lived in Europe or Australia. But now I am worried about the mentality that has developed in the States. Too much John Wayne for my taste......--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Clownburner 0 #71 July 16, 2003 QuoteThey have nukes, they have a huge army, and they have the resolve to use both of them. The only thing preventing them from being a viable threat to us at this moment (besided nuclear war) is their lack of a substantial navy. Without a very strong navy they will never be able to sustain a war past the first blow (on our soil). I disagree here; the biggest thing preventing them from being an immediate threat is that the US is the largest market in the world for their products, and their economy largely relies on exports to the US. It would be very bad news economically for them to attack us. However, they certainly wouldn't and can't ignore us turning north korea into a parking lot. Any way you slice it, it would be an EXTREMELY bad deal for everyone involved.7CP#1 | BTR#2 | Payaso en fuego Rodriguez "I want hot chicks in my boobies!"- McBeth Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #72 July 16, 2003 QuoteAlthough do not agree with the current events that has brought Europe against the US, with the exception of Spain, and England. Not correct, a number of European countries supported the US (including troops) - but they did it often due to loyalty without great joy.... Quote Apparently they all try to accuse and liberate themselves of over a millenium of tragic history of explotation of other cultures. Regardless to what they have to say about this matter, this holds true with most ex European colonies that are currently independent. While they close the doors on everyone else that is not giving them any benefit, such as lets say a plan MARSHALL, now they want to pretend they are the utmost civil culture in the world. Quote It is not that US is perfect, but they are quick to point fingers and forget just a 1000 years of total control of the globe that is and for many years will affect current affairs. Look at Africa, the last colony abandoned, and the current state of affairs, look at the middle east, ????? I am sorry but this is exactly the issue I have with the Americans - big sweeping statements. And talking about Africa and Middle East - I think US policies post WW2 have been huge contributors to many of the issues in the ME and Africa. But it is a very complex issue. Not understanding the complexities is the biggest problem the US has. Quote SO who's fault it is? Well, if you don't have a better solution, and are not pretending to be part of one, you should shut up and step aside, and don't let your ego and feelings of SUPERIORITY take hold of you. Well "John Wayne" this statement is exactly why the US is falling out with large part of its allies. Talking about "superiority" and "ego" - living in a glass house - are we? QuoteSADDAM was helped by many western developed countries, inculding the US, but everyone seems to forget that he has used WMD against people of his own country, and that after years and years of blatant disregard for the UN resolution, France and their nice friends were quick to say that 12 years was not sufficient time to comply Correct - but most help from the US - during the Iran war. I actually support getting rid of Saddam, but the way it was done... A lot of Europeans were saying: we understand and support you, but basing the case on threat of WMD and connections to Osama is flimsy at least. Also, what are you going to do in Iraq after the war - it is a very complex country. The problem is that the current US administration does not take any input from its friends - actually portraits them as enemies when they don't do what they are told. This is not smart politics - and the issues raised by many are now coming home to roost. I used to always support the US ( I grew up in Europe and without the support of the US we would have lost our freedom), but the current administration is behaving in such an arrogant and aggressive way that they are going to loose many friends...--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #73 July 17, 2003 QuoteQuoteAlthough do not agree with the current events that has brought Europe against the US, with the exception of Spain, and England. Not correct, a number of European countries supported the US (including troops) - but they did it often due to loyalty without great joy.... Quote Apparently they all try to accuse and liberate themselves of over a millenium of tragic history of explotation of other cultures. Regardless to what they have to say about this matter, this holds true with most ex European colonies that are currently independent. While they close the doors on everyone else that is not giving them any benefit, such as lets say a plan MARSHALL, now they want to pretend they are the utmost civil culture in the world. what happened refuting this one? cat got your tongue? Quote It is not that US is perfect, but they are quick to point fingers and forget just a 1000 years of total control of the globe that is and for many years will affect current affairs. Look at Africa, the last colony abandoned, and the current state of affairs, look at the middle east, ????? I am sorry but this is exactly the issue I have with the Americans - big sweeping statements. And talking about Africa and Middle East - I think US policies post WW2 have been huge contributors to many of the issues in the ME and Africa. But it is a very complex issue. Not understanding the complexities is the biggest problem the US has. Quote a: again I said EVERYONE has made mistakes, these are very complex issues indeed, but they are not even 20% created from the last 30 years, they come from CENTURIES ago. It just took to much time, or should you say that the muslim pride is not hurt because when they compare to Western they seem to always manage last?, granted, this has come from their own affairs too as well, is not really one person to blame here. Look at actual history, and figure that if the sunites did never go against shiites, then I don't know wtf I'm talking about. SO who's fault it is? Well, if you don't have a better solution, and are not pretending to be part of one, you should shut up and step aside, and don't let your ego and feelings of SUPERIORITY take hold of you. Well "John Wayne" this statement is exactly why the US is falling out with large part of its allies. Talking about "superiority" and "ego" - living in a glass house - are we? not John wayne, just call me Juan. If you think it was nice to have the twin towers blown, and then we just should sit there calmly saying, oh yea lets wait till our Euro Friends decide that we should step up measures against Saddam, and terrorist states, hhmmmm, either way we are F&%^&^ed, the difference now is that they are thinking a lot more deeply before starting any offense against US, and at least this has created a worldwide will to go after these terrorist, their money, etc. But yes, granted it is not a black and white issue. So again, if you don't have a better proposition, then please step aside. QuoteSADDAM was helped by many western developed countries, inculding the US, but everyone seems to forget that he has used WMD against people of his own country, and that after years and years of blatant disregard for the UN resolution, France and their nice friends were quick to say that 12 years was not sufficient time to comply Correct - but most help from the US - during the Iran war. I actually support getting rid of Saddam, but the way it was done... A lot of Europeans were saying: we understand and support you, but basing the case on threat of WMD and connections to Osama is flimsy at least. Also, what are you going to do in Iraq after the war - it is a very complex country. I used to always support the US ( I grew up in Europe and without the support of the US we would have lost our freedom), but the current administration is behaving in such an arrogant and aggressive way that they are going to loose many friends... a: Mostly from the states???? Arrogant? tell me which European country ever declared war against a nation, and then put their own money to rebuild it? so you just forgot those contracts with Germany and France and even England (let us say the super gun) that where made after 1991 and had provided steady techno help in nuclear and armaments? Oh yea, I forgot, this is not true, it is something US made up. So yes, I do fear that it seems that is all going to hell, but again, we can not keep on waiting here. Or next time around we will find out that Europe will elect N. Korea for human rights...."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueEyedMonster 0 #74 July 17, 2003 QuoteI am sorry but this is exactly the issue I have with the Americans - big sweeping statements. And talking about Africa and Middle East - I think US policies post WW2 have been huge contributors to many of the issues in the ME and Africa. But it is a very complex issue. Not understanding the complexities is the biggest problem the US has. This is exactly my issue with Europeans. Complain a lot, bicker about the complexities, but never offer viable solutions with any backbone. Find an idea that actually works, step up to the plate, stick to your guns. Then maybe we wouldn't have to be the bully. I'm sure we'd love to share the responsibility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #75 July 17, 2003 >This is exactly my issue with Europeans. Complain a lot, bicker about >the complexities, but never offer viable solutions with any backbone. Right. When will they learn to get over this diplomacy hangup and learn to just start bombing when things get difficult? I mean, sure, a lot of people die, but it's a lot more fun, and there's none of that difficult negotiation. >I'm sure we'd love to share the responsibility. Apparently only when we need cannon fodder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites