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Thanks for keeping me right on the registration thing, although the logic for not registering firearms is puzzling to me...
"and if necessary, overthrow our government."
So much for democracy then....
"Like say... to prevent terrorism??? "
When you wage war on terrorism, you may have to give up a whole lot more than just your firearms.
"and if necessary, overthrow our government."
So much for democracy then....
"Like say... to prevent terrorism??? "
When you wage war on terrorism, you may have to give up a whole lot more than just your firearms.
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
jfields 0
QuoteWhen you wage war on terrorism, you may have to give up a whole lot more than just your firearms.
[sarcasm]
How many times do I have to scold you? Fighting terrorism isn't important. Besides, it is so damned inconvenient. It is the right to anonymously own weapons so I can get drunk and accidently kill someone with then thank my NRA lobbyists for the fact that the weapon and round can't easily get traced back to me that is important.
See? Firearms registration is BAD. You Nazi!
[/sarcasm]
Quotealthough the logic for not registering firearms is puzzling to me...
"and if necessary, overthrow our government."
So much for democracy then....
We don't have a democracy, we have a republic.
And if the need to overthrow the government comes about... then obviously the majority of the people are not being represented. So, I would say the government probably would have transformed into some type of dictatorship. Its possible, it happened in Germany.
However the Constitution makes clear there are some rights the government does not have the power to take away.... And the right to bear arms is one of them.Quote"Like say... to prevent terrorism??? "
When you wage war on terrorism, you may have to give up a whole lot more than just your firearms.
[Penitent child complete with pouted lip]
Sorry dad.
I thought this was all about the bad people who want to shoot good people like you and me......
[/Penitent child complete with pouted lip]
Sorry dad.
I thought this was all about the bad people who want to shoot good people like you and me......
[/Penitent child complete with pouted lip]
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He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson
Jib 0
QuoteDon't you have to register your firearms Kev?
How does registering your firearms cause a legal user a problem?
Knowing where they are is the first step in confiscating them. Criminals aren't required to reqister guns; it would violate their rights.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
Jib 0
QuoteThanks for keeping me right on the registration thing, although the logic for not registering firearms is puzzling to me...
"and if necessary, overthrow our government."
So much for democracy then....
"Like say... to prevent terrorism??? "
When you wage war on terrorism, you may have to give up a whole lot more than just your firearms.
What about the citizens of North Korea? Do you think some of them might be interested in overthrowing the government? Would you support their efforts?
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
Your comment about the US not paying it's dues is fucking stupid!!!! We put a boatload more money into the UN than anyother country. Oh, and by the way how much do you thing the repairs to the UN building are going to cost the USA (not the UN) next year????? I will give you a hint around ohhh about a billion dollars.
What % of the financing came from the US in Kosovo?
What % of the financing came from the US in
the first Gulf war.
Why does the US supply 70% of the food for the UN's world food program?
Don't give me the bullshit attitude that we started are own problems with the UN. It is a fucking bogus organization. And without the US paying "most" of the expenses, the UN wouldn't even exist. We are doing them a favor!!!!
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
What % of the financing came from the US in Kosovo?
What % of the financing came from the US in
the first Gulf war.
Why does the US supply 70% of the food for the UN's world food program?
Don't give me the bullshit attitude that we started are own problems with the UN. It is a fucking bogus organization. And without the US paying "most" of the expenses, the UN wouldn't even exist. We are doing them a favor!!!!
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
jfields 0
QuoteYour comment about the US not paying it's dues is fucking stupid!!!! We put a boatload more money into the UN than anyother country. Oh, and by the way how much do you thing the repairs to the UN building are going to cost the USA (not the UN) next year????? I will give you a hint around ohhh about a billion dollars.
What % of the financing came from the US in Kosovo?
What % of the financing came from the US in
the first Gulf war.
Why does the US supply 70% of the food for the UN's world food program?
You are entirely missing the point. I have not said we don't contribute in many ways to the UN. I said we hadn't paid our full dues. That remains true. I didn't say our dues weren't much larger than many other countries. What I'm getting at is a credibility issue. Whatever dollar figure we put down, or agree to, we need to supply. I'm not arguing about the size of the check, just that we should be good to our word.
QuoteIt is a fucking bogus organization. And without the US paying "most" of the expenses, the UN wouldn't even exist. We are doing them a favor!!!!
Is it a "bogus" organization because you disklike the goals, because we ignore them anyway, or because it is reflecting changing and unifying world attitudes that we don't share at the moment?
No, I truely don't care what there goals are, that is not why it is bogus. It is bogus because it is an ineffective entity which wastes too much time ond money. The concept of the UN is a good one. The output from the UN is poor.
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
jfields 0
QuoteThe concept of the UN is a good one. The output from the UN is poor.
Okay. That I can deal with. Unfortunately, the exact same thing could be said of the US government.
Yet we don't throw it away, we work to improve it.
That is not true. The US government has only One real function, and that is the protection of the american people. The fact that the US gov helps with schools, and medical care etc... is just a bonus. People assume the Government owes us something (aside from protection). They don't!!
Now the UN was designed as a world organization of protection, representation, and relief. This is why they were ineffective in all areas.
It did not do so in this instance. It had no roll in the Bay of Pigs. the Hungarian invasion, or Tenneman Square, it did nothing to avert the Cuban missile crisis though the subject was debated there, it failed to reduce tensions between Croations and Serbs in Kosovo, and above all has done nothing to support the Cechnians in Russia or freedom fighters anywhere. What has it ever done that makes its expensive continuance worth our while. Even when we succeed in our quest to be a nation, the U N will do nothing but grant us a seat in their ineffective chamber, after the fact. Most new nations have been deluded by this honor and have spent more money belonging to it than achieving anything through it. We should save our time, our energy, our breath our health and our money and set an example by boycotting it.
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
Now the UN was designed as a world organization of protection, representation, and relief. This is why they were ineffective in all areas.
It did not do so in this instance. It had no roll in the Bay of Pigs. the Hungarian invasion, or Tenneman Square, it did nothing to avert the Cuban missile crisis though the subject was debated there, it failed to reduce tensions between Croations and Serbs in Kosovo, and above all has done nothing to support the Cechnians in Russia or freedom fighters anywhere. What has it ever done that makes its expensive continuance worth our while. Even when we succeed in our quest to be a nation, the U N will do nothing but grant us a seat in their ineffective chamber, after the fact. Most new nations have been deluded by this honor and have spent more money belonging to it than achieving anything through it. We should save our time, our energy, our breath our health and our money and set an example by boycotting it.
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
QuoteIf the whole world thinks you are a jerk, it might be time to consider that the whole world isn't wrong, and you are acting like a jerk.
A valid point. But, one must also consider that the whole world does not think that we are acting like jerks.
We all know that Europeans have a gloried history in the last 100 years. WE all know that the countries of Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America have a great history of getting along this last 100 years.
I refuse to look at Europe as the bastion of peace, love and understanding in this world until they can show how to get along. I refuse to look at Africa as the model for peaceful coexistence and humanity. I refuse to view Asia as the example of how we all can get along. And I don't view South America as the Sindero Luminoso to solid governments founded on the principals of human rights and democracy.
These places have issues with us? Well, people have issues with the way their doctors sav their lives. People have issues with lawyers who save their precious asses.
And here America won't go along with everything the rest of the world has to say? The UN Security council passes a unanimous resolution that Iraq violated the terms of the cease-fire. America is the only country with the anatomy to do something about it.
p.s. I did not support the war in Iraq.
Americans don't fuck around. Americans don't care what the rest of the world thinks. The rest of the world thinks that America should halt private ownership of firearms?
Americans disagree, and Americans say they will not tolerate the taking of our weapons by a quasi-governmental entity.
We mean it, too. We will pass no resolutions against the taking of firearms. Instead, we will show resolve.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
QuoteOkay. That I can deal with. Unfortunately, the exact same thing could be said of the US government.QuoteThe concept of the UN is a good one. The output from the UN is poor.
Yet we don't throw it away, we work to improve it.
One BIG problem there. Unlike our dynamic government with its amendable Constitution, the basic structure of the UN is static. Any changes would require a new charter, treaty, and ratification by the participant governments. Basically, you have to create a different UN. There is no intrinsic ability to adapt to global political changes.
QuoteAmericans disagree, and Americans say they will not tolerate the taking of our weapons by a quasi-governmental entity.
We mean it, too. We will pass no resolutions against the taking of firearms. Instead, we will show resolve.
I wish that were true.
http://www.mcsm.org/confisc.html
http://www.kc3.com/news/chicago_confiscation.htm
http://www.truepatriot.com/folly_of_registration.html#New York
jfields 0
QuoteI refuse to look at Europe as the bastion of peace, love and understanding in this world until they can show how to get along.
I'm not holding Europe up as any shining example. Like most things in life, everyone has some improvement to do. We just can't hold ourselves exempt from that. Our own report card as a nation would be far from straight "A"s.
QuoteAmericans disagree, and Americans say they will not tolerate the taking of our weapons by a quasi-governmental entity.
We mean it, too. We will pass no resolutions against the taking of firearms. Instead, we will show resolve.
Like Kevin, I disagree. But for different reasons.
We cannot show that strong united resolve and defiance, because "we", the American people, don't have a united opinion. I'm in favor of registration. So are lots of other Americans. Lots aren't. Welcome to our country. Land of the free... to argue about everything.
I see registration as a good thing. It helps us keep track of the weapons, and who their rightful owners are. If a particular type of weapon is outlawed, registration aids in the efficient enforcement of the law. If you own that type of weapon, your objection shouldn't be the enforcement of the law, but the law itself. (Not talking about overzealous enforcement of things that aren't laws, just proper enforcement of those on the books.)
If you are think the DUI limit should be higher than your state's limit, does that mean your method of disobedience should be to get in a drunken brawl with a cop that pulls you over? No. It means you should have fought the proposed law you didn't like. If the law passed anyway, just suck up and deal. That is a democracy. We all are held accountable to the laws our elected officials pass.
QuoteI see registration as a good thing. It helps us keep track of the weapons, and who their rightful owners are.
What purpose do you suppose that serves? I may consider a scheme where manufacturers and sellers are required to keep records that can they only be accessed via a valid search warrant. But what usefullness would come from a centralized database?
It won't prevent crime. It won't even help find criminals? What are you going to do? Look up and see how many people own a 9mm to find a murderer?
This statement, "see registration as a good thing. It helps us keep track of the weapons, and who their rightful owners are. If a particular type of weapon is outlawed, registration aids in the efficient enforcement of the law.", scares the hell out of me.
Because that's exactly what it's been used for. People in Cali were forced to register specific weapons because they looked similar to (but did not have the same function as) military arms. Then they were forced to turn them in, without sufficient compensation. And if they didn't, they were arrested.
Do you really support the notion that a legally purchased and owned item can be deemed illegal later and then seized from you? How would you like to lose your posessions that you worked and paid for?
Jib 0
QuoteWe cannot show that strong united resolve and defiance, because "we", the American people, don't have a united opinion. I'm in favor of registration. So are lots of other Americans. Lots aren't. Welcome to our country. Land of the free... to argue about everything.
We may have differing opinions, but Americans in general aren't going to let a bunch of whiny foreigners tell us what we can and can't do.
QuoteIf a particular type of weapon is outlawed, registration aids in the efficient enforcement of the law.
That's the only reason for it: to take them away.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
You are indeed correct on many points, and I will gladly concur that America has a number of problems.
And you are right that Americans have a divided opinion. That's why I did not support the war in Iraq. That's why I also do not support the UN. That's why I am pro-gun without owning them.
Registration is a sensible thing. I think guns should be registered. If a particular gun is outlawed, then you are correct about the disagreement with the law. Thus far we are 100 percent in agreement.
I won't have to worry about getting into trouble if guns are banned. I don't have one.
The one thing I disagree with you about is the "suck up and deal. That is a democracy." Remember, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. And our job, if we do not like the law, is to either challenge the law in court, or fire the legislature and bring in others.
But there are plenty of people in america who believe that the gns will be taken from their cold dead fingers. It is a frightening thought. And I do not doubt that a very large number of them mean it.
That is my fear. The rest of the wold may think they are jerks. The rest of the world and country may disagree. But, to someone like me who has on three separate occasions sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, I also think that these people have a valid point.
Well reasoned argument, though. Thanks for challenging my admitted invective..
My wife is hotter than your wife.
And you are right that Americans have a divided opinion. That's why I did not support the war in Iraq. That's why I also do not support the UN. That's why I am pro-gun without owning them.
Registration is a sensible thing. I think guns should be registered. If a particular gun is outlawed, then you are correct about the disagreement with the law. Thus far we are 100 percent in agreement.
I won't have to worry about getting into trouble if guns are banned. I don't have one.
The one thing I disagree with you about is the "suck up and deal. That is a democracy." Remember, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. And our job, if we do not like the law, is to either challenge the law in court, or fire the legislature and bring in others.
But there are plenty of people in america who believe that the gns will be taken from their cold dead fingers. It is a frightening thought. And I do not doubt that a very large number of them mean it.
That is my fear. The rest of the wold may think they are jerks. The rest of the world and country may disagree. But, to someone like me who has on three separate occasions sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution, I also think that these people have a valid point.
Well reasoned argument, though. Thanks for challenging my admitted invective..
My wife is hotter than your wife.
jfields 0
QuoteThe one thing I disagree with you about is the "suck up and deal. That is a democracy." Remember, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. And our job, if we do not like the law, is to either challenge the law in court, or fire the legislature and bring in others.
By "Suck up and deal", I mean, "Obey the law." That isn't saying you shouldn't object in court, demonstrate, vote, boycott and use every other lawful persuasion you can. But disagreement with a law does not grant exemption from it. We have the freedom to vote on issues, but then the obligation to abide by the results.
According to Thoreau, we have a moral obligation to disobey those laws that we find to be unjust.
Jib 0
QuoteBy "Suck up and deal", I mean, "Obey the law." That isn't saying you shouldn't object in court, demonstrate, vote, boycott and use every other lawful persuasion you can. But disagreement with a law does not grant exemption from it. We have the freedom to vote on issues, but then the obligation to abide by the results.
I think the founding fathers had a little different view of their options with presented with a tyrannical government.
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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt
QuoteI think the founding fathers had a little different view of their options with presented with a tyrannical government.
Exactly. The central gov't was supposed to exist to ensure that individual states weren't permitted to trample on the rights of their citizens. Not to regulate the entire country. That all changed as a result of the civil war.
No, not all firearms have to be registered
It causes a problem because the whole reason our constitution allows us to have firearms is to defend ourselves, and if necessary, overthrow our government. Now, is that really going to work when the FBI can print out a list of who has what guns and can go door to door and collect them? Like say... to prevent terrorism???
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