Depression thread

[Luna 0]

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wait a tic. hold on. this is not the way it is at all, at least the way I see it. While Tonto is speaking pretty bluntly about the quad in the wheelchair, I don't think any of us are trying to bully you about your beliefs. If it works for you, then more power to you. As I've told you, I also believe in the power of the mind and it's ability TO A POINT to positively influence all sorts of disease states, most importantly, mental illnesses. What some of us take exception to is that when Rhino first started to post about this, it came across to some as dogmatic and critical and insensitive to those who, for whatever reason, cannot or will not get off of medications.
And I don't remember ANYONE trying to censor you or Rhino.

If our belief is a possibility, then why are we still debating it? Sorry, but I feel totally under attack here, and I was even more so in the Women's thread about this topic. What I have seen said is that putting out an alternative is wrong, is DANGEROUS, etc. To me, trying to keep the alternative hidden is censorship. Regardless of how Rhino's initial message was taken, I have NEVER tried to say people should NEVER take meds, and yet my views are still attacked. I have still been told that my views are harmful and that I should basically keep my mouth shut or risk being responsible for someone's death. Thanks for trying to lay all of that on me (keep in mind here, some of what I may be talking about is either in deleted threads or PM's as well). I have been told that I am making people feel bad for their decision to take meds. How is that fair to my position? People continue putting words in my mouth and blaming me for their own feelings, which I have NOTHING to do with. All I want is for people to know that there are other alternatives that might work. They might help some people get off meds. They might helps others be able to avoid going on them. They might not help other people at all. But it is possible. That's all I want to say.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[sinker 0]

ok. you've said it then. putting out an alternative to meds is not WRONG but, if not presented in the proper context or wording (which is difficult to gauge in a forum such as this), it can indeed be dangerous. There is a reason why psychiatrists go through 4 yrs of college, 4 more years of medical school, usually 4 more years of residency, THEN, often fellowships after that.

my point here is that depression is a complex issue and doling out unsolicited advice to people w/o having first gathered alot of information about the people you're dealing with is irresponsible. And yes, I do believe that some of your beliefs and Rhino's beliefs can easily be stigmatizing and damaging to people who would like nothing more than to make their brain turn the depression switch off. Unfortunately, it's just not that simple.

sorry you've been hurt over this. I never intended that to happen.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Tonto 1]

Quote: "Am I personally attacking you? "

I don't know... when someone says "YOU can even kill YOURself with nothing but the power of YOUR mind." it sounds a little like a personal attack to me. Sorry if it appeared defensive. Is Paranoia ever justified?

You and Rhino - I don't know. Your views seem really close. He's on his GOD thing - You're on your MIND thing - and both of you seem to be poking holes in the MEDS thing. No one on the Meds side is saying that ONLY meds work. Sorry if I'm painting you with the same brush - but you're standing really close to a dude that's not against using nukes against people with a different ideology.

I hope you lose the weight you want to, and overcome your phobia, and I hope that everyone out there gets the tools they need to make it through the day and be a little better at being who they are than they were yesterday.

t


t

It's the year of the Pig.

[n2skdvn 0]

BOOBIES!!!!!

(In before the lock)

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[sinker 0]

no boobies here... everyone is too depressed to show 'em...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Luna 0]

Well, like it or not, I have been hurt, my views have been attacked and distorted, and that's just that. So what? What other people think about me really doesn't matter anyway. I mean, if I'm going to get told to go kill myself because I wasn't being conscious enough to use the phrase "People can kill themselves with their mind if they choose to" instead of using the all-purpose "You," then hey, I give up. That's just ridiculous.

I agree that advice on how to treat depression should not be given out here in this forum. But when people start doing just that, suggesting meds (by the way, you never did address the people who take the meds and kill themselves anyway...was that not bad advice?), then I think a little balance should be offered. I know someone who read some of my posts in the Women's thread and based on that, decided that they could handle their anxiety attacks without their meds, and did so successfully. So why should I stop posting my views if they are able to help even one person? As long as the topic is being addressed, anyway.

As for what Emma said, that not everyone has the ability to take control, I am sorry, but I do disagree with that. Everyone has the ability within them to overcome whatever has been done to them, whatever upbringing they have endured, whatever events in their life may have caused them pain, whatever. The ability is there. If one person has done it, then it is possible for anyone else to do it. Mostly what it comes down to is a belief that you can't. Henry Ford said "Whether you believe you can, or you believe you can't, you are right." And that is why I say, everyone is right. Whatever you believe is real is real. Change your beliefs, change your life. Beliefs, willingness, and the right tools...and ANYTHING is possible. I'm sorry if you don't believe that, but I'd appreciate it if everyone would stop telling me that I'm wrong, because I clearly have told you that whatever you believe is true for you, so let this be true for me, and for anyone else who can recieve the message, and leave it at that.

I'm done here. My message has been given over and over, and will have been received by those open enough to receive it. I am a bit tired of all of the people who attack my views and then deny it, tell me go to kill myself and then twist my words to make it my fault and comes back with some nice sentiment about how they wish me all the best in my life to try to smooth it over, blame me for their bad feelings or the death of their friends, etc. Basically all people seem to want here is just an affirmation that it's okay to take meds. Let me help you with that. Yes, if meds are the right thing for you at this point in your life, then it's fine that you are taking them. Now, is everyone happy?

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Emma 0]

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As for what Emma said, that not everyone has the ability to take control, I am sorry, but I do disagree with that.

I used to share your views, but I have come to the conclusion that although I feel that I have the ability to take control, and that I can achieve anything I want in my life (I really do believe that), I don't know what it's like to be someone else, so I can't apply my beliefs to their life.

Never judge an Indian until you've walked a mile in their shoes, as they say.

I am not attacking you, Luna, I enjoy your debate. Maybe later in life I'll change my views again, who knows where experience may take me?

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[sinker 0]

gosh luna, what can anyone say to that post? I'm TRULY sorry your feelings have been hurt... honestly, I'm very sorry.

tonto did not mean literally you should go kill yourself. you're taking that too literally. he was using hyperbole to make a point.

addressing people who take meds and kill themselves... i've not once said that medication is a panacea. not even the best medication "cures" depression. it's a sad fact that even those being treated w/ meds still sometimes take their lives. it would be myopic however to state that it was bad advice to give them meds in the first place. there are many reasons why people kill themselves. one reason why the newer antideps are so good is that it is virtually impossible to kill yourself with them.

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Everyone has the ability within them to overcome whatever has been done to them, whatever
upbringing they have endured, whatever events in their life may have caused them pain, whatever. The
ability is there. If one person has done it, then it is possible for anyone else to do it

I know I'm not going to change your mind here... as much as I'm trying to employ the power of MY mind to change yours (it's a joke dear). But please please please... if you feel that way, realize that there are others who DON'T feel that way and may be shamed by your beliefs ("she did it, why isn't it working for me?")

and the reasons you cite for why people get depressed... all are environmental, situational. You do not address those born w/ a genetic predisposition. You simply cannot logically argue that those people CAN change this by will power. Some MAY...

I really wish this thread did not turn into this...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[Tonto 1]

Don't feel hurt.

Use the power of the mind.

"If one person has done it, then it is possible for anyone else to do it."

That's complete crap. We cannot all summit Everest, swim the channel, win the Nobel Peace Prize, overcome Cancer or become world record freedivers as the DEAD dude in your example indicates. Telling people to try is dangerous. We're all different, and cannot focus our lives on everything. That's not focus. It's this diversity which makes us exceptional.

If you save one person and cause the deaths of countless others, are you a saviour or a killer?

How is it that you have the right to disagree with Emma, or me, but we have no right to disagree with you?

It's the year of the Pig.

[Luna 0]

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If you save one person and cause the deaths of countless others, are you a saviour or a killer?

You've made my point. This is why I'm done with this. I have plenty more to say, but I'm done.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Zennie 0]

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I agree. You have to have the tools, and sometimes that just means finding out that they are out there.

I know you're out on this thread, but I'mlate in so I'll just add my $0.02 as someone who once felt like you... until an event sent me into a true clinical depression.

The problem with depression is that you CAN'T control it. Not because your mind is weak or that you can't see it. While I was depressed and unmedicated I KNEW that my thinking was distorted. I KNEW I needed to break out of it.

But I couldn't. No amount of rational thinking allowed me to sleep at night. No amount of rational thinking got me eating again, or focusing at work, or caring whether I lived or died.

And that's the really scary and frustrating thing about true depression. You KNOW what's going on, but you have absolutely no control over it. Do you have any idea how maddening that is?

It's why a lot of depressed people kill themselves. Besides the general feelings of worthlessness and hopelessness, you just want it to STOP.

OK, so why do I say it can't be controlled? Because it's a brain chemistry thing. That's where meds come in.

Now, to get where I am today (which is better, but by no means "cured", I'm not sure I ever will be) I went on meds AND did extensive cognitive therapy. You do need both. Meds alone won't help you cope once you get the brain chemistry somewhat back into line.

And I guess that's really where I'm coming from. Meds alone aren't the answer, and cognitive exercises aren't the answer. You need both.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[Luna 0]

Sorry, I know I said I was done, but upon reflection, Sinker, you are right. It's much easier to not know what is possible. It makes it much easier to just go on. (no, I'm not being sarcastic) I've just decided that I don't do what's easy anymore. Anyway, I apologize, and moderater, please delete all of my posts in this thread.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[happythoughts 0]

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And I guess that's really where I'm coming from. Meds alone aren't the answer, and cognitive exercises aren't the answer. You need both.

I agree. Meds to stabilize and therapy to help.

An interesting thread. On one side, people who have had clinical depression and had to deal with it. These people went to professionals. The professionals spend their entire lives dealing with depressed patients.

On the other side, people who speak from their own frame of reference, but have no actual experience.

Sounds an AFF instructor, with 10 years in sport, arguing with a whuffo. Topic? "This what freefall feels like..." "I've jumped off my couch, same thing, right?"

The "I've been unhappy before also..." isn't the same as "I've been clinically depressed before...". Same magnitude of difference. Real depression calls for real work.

I went through the light depression (unhappy days) just before my divorce. Went to therapy, recommend it to anyone. Sorted things out. That is hugely different from clinical depression.

[sinker 0]

Sorry, I know I said I was done, but upon reflection, Sinker, you are right. It's much easier to not know
what is possible. It makes it much easier to just go on. (no, I'm not being sarcastic) I've just decided that
I don't do what's easy anymore. Anyway, I apologize, and moderater, please delete all of my posts in this
thread. ***

that's EXACTLY the shitty attitude people here get pissed off about... so you don't want to take the easy way out anymore... thanks for being sanctimonious about this and accusing all of us ON meds of being lazy, taking the easy way.

I have 4 years of post grad education and YEARS of experience treating depression and dealing w/ it myself... I'm an expert at REBT (rational emotive behavioral therapy), flooding, systematic desensitization (try that for your phobia darling!) and other cognitive therapies, , etc. And b/c I'm on meds, I am taking the easy way? You are so utterly clueless. I'm glad you found something that works for you. But you know, it hasn't entirely worked for me. And I'm not the least bit ashamed of it either. How dare you look down on me and others b/c we are "copping out" and using meds.

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[rhino 0]

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Otherwise, all of the energy is spent existing.

That is just life. All of our energy IS spent existing. Granted some people do need meds. BUT MOST PEOPLE DON'T.

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maybe, just maybe, the cost of doing so in time and energy lost that could be devoted to other things just isn't worth it.

The cost of time and energy in fixing yourself is ALLWAYS worth it. No matter how long it takes. Would you rather FIX the flat tire? Or keep putting fix a flat into it on a daily basis. lol

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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Right now you and Rhino look like a pair of bullies kicking quads out of their chairs and exhorting them to use the power of the mind to walk.

Personally I don't care what you think I look like. My opinions are mine. My beliefs are mine. No one can take them away.

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When you get these things right, then you can start telling people about the power of the mind.

Who the hell are you to tell her when she can and can't start talking about the powers of the mind. Maybe if you understood a FRACTION of what she does you can really start to see what she is saying.

Her and I ganged together? We may not be standing with the masses here but we are not bullying anyone.

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Let it be.

You let it be. I like to change things I don't like. Change is good. If I can teach someone something they didn't know that improves the quality of their life then I will. You let it be.

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We're all just doing the best we can on this planet.

My ass. Laziness has taken over. The easy and quick way is the right way according to modern day society.

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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if not presented in the proper context or wording

Is there a proper judge in here? I didn't think so.. Come to find out everyone in here is being judgemental.. LOL

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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He's on his GOD thing - You're on your MIND thing

And you are on your argue with everyones thing because you don't have a thing.. lol

Rhino

[rhino 0]

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The problem with depression is that you CAN'T control it.

Actually you can....

[rhino 0]

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(try that for your phobia darling!)

That was uncalled for.. She is married and so are you I don't think she is your darling...

I've almost completed my degree in psychology as well. My grandfather has a PHD in psychology. I am not speaking from uneducated opinions alone.

And a couple of you have a clue as to what I myself have been through over the last 3 years with my son. And some things I had to get over from the convention last year.

I did get over it. I have been there. So before anyone knocks me for not having walked a mile in their shoes I HAVE WALKED TEN.

Rhino

[happythoughts 0]

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So before anyone knocks me for not having walked a mile in their shoes I HAVE WALKED TEN.

I don't believe that you have. You have dealt with depression, but there is a range of depression, like warm is to hot.

There is a couple of ways to get the deep depression that I have seen. The depression is caused by an imbalance of chemicals in the brain. You can get this from nature or from traumatic injury.

Examples - Traumatic accident, brain injury. I have a friend who is a LO. Hooked in, died, revived, a week in a coma. They gave him drugs to control the mood swings for 10 months. My aunt was in a terrible car accident, same problems.

Second, I have a friend who has battled depression and has a normal pattern to her life now. The drugs helped control the mood problems until her therapy could help.

It is a lot more than just a lack of a positive attitude.

[thethinker 0]

I really get sad when i haven't spoken with sinker in a few days.....i mean this...really

We do not have to visit a madhouse to find disordered minds; our planet is the mental institution of the universe.
-Johann von Goethe

[JDBoston 0]

A couple thoughts - in mental illness, there's no such thing as walking in someone else's shoes. It's different for everyone. You have no idea what other people do or don't feel like, whether they're depressed or whatever.

There's simply no way for you to, just like there is no way for us to know what you have been through the last 3 years with your son. You can't go from saying that no one understands what you have been through to saying in the next paragraph that you understand what they are going through. You can't have it both ways.

Also, this really is a scientific subject. It's all based on brain chemistry. Yet there are still a lot of cliches and generalities floating around. IMHO, Tony Robbins-type generalizations without some hard studies and evidence behind them really aren't worth jack in a discussion about this stuff. But that's just me.

Nothing personal.

Joe

[Tonto 1]

"So before anyone knocks me for not having walked a mile in their shoes I HAVE WALKED TEN."

Well you just keep on going then - preferably away from me.

You and I? We are worlds apart, in distance, time, space, ideology. My biggest nightmare is being able to see your point of view - just for a second.

Thin end of the wedge.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[skymama 37]

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And a couple of you have a clue as to what I myself have been through over the last 3 years with my son. And some things I had to get over from the convention last year.

Having stressful and trying times isn't the same as being clinically depressed.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon