Round packing questions - shoulda asked before but never did...

[crapflinger2000 1]

Round canopy packing questions.

In keeping with my “I am out of the sport so who cares how stupid I look” line of questions… I packed a bunch of bailouts and the occasional round sport reserve, but since I was very much a sport parachute rigger where rounds are few and far between, I always had a bunch of “not sure why I am doing this but what the heck” types of questions. To my knowledge only one of my rounds was ever deployed (it opened BTW).
And let me say “thanks” to Al Silver who at one time called me on some screw up and thereafter was a valuable source of help whenever I called him.
Regarding rounds (in bailout or sport rigs):

a) Putting into Container - Why do most instructions regarding stowing the round in the container want you to S-fold the thing in one direction (let’s say bottom of pack tray to top) but the last fold with the apex is supposed to go the opposite direction (hypothetically one s-fold with apex lines back toward the bottom)? The guy who taught me rounds never really explained it… is it to protect the relatively delicate apex lines from abrading on the cordura? For aesthetic purposes? Other?
It always seemed weird to me to do this since the guy who taught me rounds said “NEVER build in a twist into the canopy when you put it into the container” - because of this I spent a good deal of time experimenting with little scraps of pull-up cords (representing the folded canopy) to ensure that the way I was putting the canopy into the container would not introduce twists upon extraction (yes I tend to over-think things) – doing this last fold this way bugged me because if extracted vertically it would put in a bit of a twist, but I guess only a very minor one.

b) Diapers - 2 stow diapers never really made much sense to me, seemed awfully ineffective unless you built in a bit of slack in the line group that was used to close the diaper relative to the other line group – seemed like w/o this the locking stows were likely to release early. Never saw this guidance in the manuals so I always felt a bit weird doing it but some experimenting on the packing table seemed to bear this out, so I did it. Keep in mind I am talking about VERY little slack – just enough to ensure the locking stows were the last thing to release. Anyone else ever do this?

c) Seat Bailouts relative to Back Bailouts – why are these 2 separate ratings? The instructions for the Strong para-cushions really did not paint a different picture from the Strong back-rigs. Only real difference seemed to be super long risers and more of a challenge in getting the canopy into the smaller seat container.

That’s all for now… debate/flame away…

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What would Vic Mackey do?

[councilman24 37]

The explanation for why the apex is turned back is to hid the lump. Most instruction say to turn it in or spread it out to spread out the bulk.

The two and now three stow diapers that strong uses, with the left side locking the diaper and the rest in the container do work. Table deploy one sometime. No need to add some slack but the first stow might start to come out as the lines deploy.

Back, seat, chest and lap (yes lap exists) have been codified in the FAR's from the beginning. When every thing was round it made some sense. Not a lot but some. Remember in the old days you had to assemble a number of different part to put together a seat. Harness, risers, back pad, rip cord housing ripcord, seat pad, container, canopy etc. Trying to figure out if a military seat is correct in all of it's parts is not a trivial excercise. Many people advocate doing away with these ratings and either having round and square or no ratings. PIA is working on a proposal but don't look for a change soon (in normal time).

NEVER hesitate to ask a question if your not sure. Allen is a good source, I do mostly rounds for pilots, and there are a number of other folks willing to help. For those of us who started skydiving with rounds and got our rigger ratings with them they aren't quite so foreign.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 280]

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but the last fold with the apex is supposed to go the opposite direction (hypothetically one s-fold with apex lines back toward the bottom)?

Now you could be talking both about folded down towards the backpad if the reserve folds pile up on each other, or folded down away from the yoke if packed in folds up towards the yoke.

I'll defer to councilman24 but I had the impression that folding the apex down was to keep the mess of lines at the apex from being able to catch on anything. Keep it away from the flaps, or maybe a pilot chute that was burrowing its way into the pack job (in early rigs with no flap, only a kicker plate), who knows. Just another theory.

Folding the apex under doesn't really create much of a twist -- after all, its just a short fold and will pull itself straight in a very short distance. Or are we thinking about different things?

With rounds one does have to think carefully whenever there's a 90 degree corner to be turned, so that one doesn't keep adding 90 degree twists. Or one can do do those fancy corners, sort of zig zagging, that avoid any twist at all, keeping the same side of the canopy facing the rigger throughout the pack job. (Obviously follow the manual, but it helps to understand the principles behind twists and turning corners.)

Line equalization diapers
For some rigs, like Strongs, if using normal rubber bands, one double wrapped the 2 or 3 locking stows on the diaper -- trying to make sure those stows stay locked until all the stows in the pack tray come out. Guess it works -- it did for me last month on a Strong.

You still have a point that it sometimes seems odd how the to-the-diaper-stows lines and the direct-to-the-canopy lines will pop out of the pack tray elastics together all the time.

(Funny how people wonder if double wrapping locking stows on a bag can cause a bag lock. Well, I hope double wrapping isn't hazardous, as they do it on reserve diapers! Mind you one is careful about bight length, so none should loop over each other as tends to be the case when d-bags get locked closed.)

A round issue of my own - folding terminology

I disliked those simple old manuals that said something like, "Fold the canopy into fifths" without explaining what that meant -- presumably everyone knew back than.

But actually, terms weren't standardized:

Strong describes folding the flaked canopy, sides in to the middle, then another set of folds inward and overlapping. This is called folding into fifths. That's the standard fifths as I know it.

But ParaPhernalia does the fold differently, yet they also call it "fifths". They fold inward but not to the centre, creating 3 equal parts. Then the sides are folded to the centre.

Similarly, when folding the skirt up so that it lies parallel to the radial seams, ParaPhernalia calls it a 45 degree fold (as the fold line is on a 45), while Strong calls it a 90 degree fold (as the edge that one is moving, changes orientation by 90 degrees).

All that did confuse me when looking at ParaPhernalia manuals, trying to make out how the photos didn't seem to match what the text was telling me, based on my previous Strong experience.

So even basic round canopy folding terminology was never standardized. Argh!

(Or is ParaPhernalia is the odd one out??)


We knew that in packing rounds that the top end of the canopy gets only folded as much as possible, which is basically not at all by the very top. But it would be confusing for a new rigger, as manuals never mention doing anything different at the top than the bottom. When dealing with the thick and lumpy upper lateral band area, or the few feet just below it, folding "into fifths" is about as doable as folding a major city's telephone book.

[councilman24 37]

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but the last fold with the apex is supposed to go the opposite direction (hypothetically one s-fold with apex lines back toward the bottom)?

Now you could be talking both about folded down towards the backpad if the reserve folds pile up on each other, or folded down away from the yoke if packed in folds up towards the yoke.

I'll defer to councilman24 but I had the impression that folding the apex down was to keep the mess of lines at the apex from being able to catch on anything. Keep it away from the flaps, or maybe a pilot chute that was burrowing its way into the pack job (in early rigs with no flap, only a kicker plate), who knows. Just another theory.

Which ever. The apex lump gets hidden for aesthetics but the lines get hidden for protection. Of course on some the apex gets spread out on top. Trying to think of something without a kick flap or kicker plate but can't right now.

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With rounds one does have to think carefully whenever there's a 90 degree corner to be turned, so that one doesn't keep adding 90 degree twists. Or one can do do those fancy corners, sort of zig zagging, that avoid any twist at all, keeping the same side of the canopy facing the rigger throughout the pack job. (Obviously follow the manual, but it helps to understand the principles behind twists and turning corners.)

Not many instructions add a twist but some could be misinterpreted that way.

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A round issue of my own - folding terminology

I disliked those simple old manuals that said something like, "Fold the canopy into fifths" without explaining what that meant -- presumably everyone knew back than.

But actually, terms weren't standardized:

Strong describes folding the flaked canopy, sides in to the middle, then another set of folds inward and overlapping. This is called folding into fifths. That's the standard fifths as I know it.

But ParaPhernalia does the fold differently, yet they also call it "fifths". They fold inward but not to the centre, creating 3 equal parts. Then the sides are folded to the centre.

Similarly, when folding the skirt up so that it lies parallel to the radial seams, ParaPhernalia calls it a 45 degree fold (as the fold line is on a 45), while Strong calls it a 90 degree fold (as the edge that one is moving, changes orientation by 90 degrees).

All that did confuse me when looking at ParaPhernalia manuals, trying to make out how the photos didn't seem to match what the text was telling me, based on my previous Strong experience.

So even basic round canopy folding terminology was never standardized. Argh!

(Or is ParaPhernalia is the odd one out??)

Not sure why you think Softie is different? Essentially its the same as everything else. The photos in the new manual do look a little different and the photos of this are missing from the Free Flite manual. Sometimes they spread things out a little to eliminate a bump or to fill a long softie. But putting a Preserve in a seat it's 'thirds and fifths' like everything else. The only odd ball is one of the military that folds the skirt at an angle less than 90 (the fold is 45 degrees, the corner is 90 so both are used to have the skirt parallel to the radial seams). 45 degree corner so the 'points' of the gores are on the opposite side of the radial seams. Then folds each side across the middle once. Think it's a navy seat but my poynters is too far away.

I saw thirds and fifths in a very old (pre WWII book on packing parachutes so it's just been copied for ever since someone didn't have a better description.

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We knew that in packing rounds that the top end of the canopy gets only folded as much as possible, which is basically not at all by the very top. But it would be confusing for a new rigger, as manuals never mention doing anything different at the top than the bottom. When dealing with the thick and lumpy upper lateral band area, or the few feet just below it, folding "into fifths" is about as doable as folding a major city's telephone book.

Ahh, but some of us flake the apex. Just like we were taught. Thirds works out most of way and all the way for some. Fifths does run out short of the top.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[pchapman 280]

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Not many instructions add a twist but some could be misinterpreted that way.

Agreed. They would add any twist but if the instructions weren't really detailed and the rigger not thinking of the issue it could happen.

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Not sure why you think Softie is different?

But it is different. Instead of folding two sides to the centreline (touching there), like National or Strong, they fold the two sides only partway in, so it looks like there are 3 equal sections.

But, they don't describe the process. They only say "fold the canopy lengthwise into thirds". Only by squinting at the pdf image can one barely see what is being done. The clue is that the canopy is too wide compared to if one folded the two sides overlapping, which could also be interpreted as thirds, having three equal sections stacked.

The rest of the procedure is better explained. One gets it folded to "fifths", although then some fabric is spread back out to give the width they desire.

Strong describes their procedure and also calls it "fifths", but it folds the canopy in a different way, resulting in a different fold configuration. (Sides to the center touching, then inwards overlapping.) National uses the same technique as Strong but doesn't use the "fifths" term.

[riggerrob 643]

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Round canopy packing question:

a) Putting into Container - Why do most instructions regarding stowing the round in the container ... but the last fold with the apex is supposed to go the opposite direction (hypothetically one s-fold with apex lines back toward the bottom)? ... …

"

......................................................................


The other motivation is to discourage riggers from jamming the apex into a corner. If the apex is jammed hard enough ... deep enough ... into a sewn corner ... often enough... it might jam in a corner ... or cause the pilot-chute to hesitate.

The other reason is to simplify bridle routing. Since most pilot-chutes are packed near the center of the container, the simpler ... and straighter ... and less likely to jam routing is straight from the apex to the center of the container. The closer the apex is to the center of the container, the less likely it is to snag on something.

[councilman24 37]

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"

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Round canopy packing question:

a) Putting into Container - Why do most instructions regarding stowing the round in the container ... but the last fold with the apex is supposed to go the opposite direction (hypothetically one s-fold with apex lines back toward the bottom)? ... …

"

......................................................................


The other motivation is to discourage riggers from jamming the apex into a corner. If the apex is jammed hard enough ... deep enough ... into a sewn corner ... often enough... it might jam in a corner ... or cause the pilot-chute to hesitate.

The other reason is to simplify bridle routing. Since most pilot-chutes are packed near the center of the container, the simpler ... and straighter ... and less likely to jam routing is straight from the apex to the center of the container. The closer the apex is to the center of the container, the less likely it is to snag on something.

What he said too.

I had that stuffed in the corner delay once, before I became my own rigger.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE