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billvon

Iraq's getting worse

By billvon, in The Bonfire

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billvon    3,088

billvon
Since we announced the end of major combat in Iraq, it looks like the terrorists have been pouring into the place. From Paul Bremer, Iraqi administrator (a US guy who's running a lot of the place now):

"After the war, it appears that a number of terrorists from the Ansar al-Islam group have reinfiltrated into Iraq. We are concerned about that. We also have other foreign terrorists who've been arriving from other borders."

He said people are entering the country with travel documents from countries such as Sudan, Syria and Yemen. "This we know because we have killed or captured a number of them," he said.

Compare this to Bush's statement a few months ago:

"The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror," he said. "We have removed an ally of al Qaeda and cut off a source of terrorist funding."

An editorial in the Times today sorta sums it up:
---------------------------
America has created — not through malevolence but through negligence — precisely the situation the Bush administration has described as a breeding ground for terrorists: a state unable to control its borders or provide for its citizens' rudimentary needs.
...
The occupation has given disparate groups from various countries a common battlefield on which to fight a common enemy. Hamid Mir, a biographer of Osama bin Laden, has been traveling in Iraq and told me that Hezbollah has greatly stepped up its activities not only in Shiite regions but also in Baghdad.
-----------------------------

I don't see any way out. I felt bad for the Iraqis under Hussein, who had to endure a vicious tyrant for years. I feel bad for them today, essentially caught in a crossfire between a rapidly growing terrorist state and the US military. And I feel really bad for our soldiers over there, for whom there is no easy answer. There will be hundreds of thousands of them over there for years, stuck in a desert swarming with people who want to kill them - with twenty million innocent people for the terrorists to hide among.

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Gawain    0

Gawain
Quote


An editorial in the Times today sorta sums it up:
---------------------------



The Times has all the credibility in the world right now....:S not! ;)

Regarding your comparison of quotes by Bush and Bremer, that's not an "apples-to-apples" comparison. Iraq is, in fact, no longer an ally of Al Qaeda or funding terrorism. That being said, it still has no bearing on the security of its borders, the problem of which, I agree with you, holds grave potential.

Unfortunately, what your portend of our soldiers remaining in Iraq for years is not new news. At any time, has our leadership said this would be over quickly?

Let's snap back to reality: who here did not think we would be actively engaged in the middle east and the sub-continent after 9/11? Before the dust settled, I knew that US tanks would be on foreign soil and that this was merely the beginning of a sustained campaign.

The attack against the UN should ring a bell to those that think this is solely about the USA that terrorist organizations are out to cause strife throughout any western world symbol. It also reinforces that we must stay until the job is done.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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quade    4

quade
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16254

Quote


"We know where they are," declared Pentagon chief Donald Rumsfeld on March 30, assuring television viewers about the location of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction (WMD), two weeks into the war in Iraq. "They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad."


It was just the latest in string of blanket statements issued by the Bush administration on the subject of Iraq. The neocons within the administration were brimming with confidence, not only on Saddam's guilt but also the outcome of the war. "I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators," said Vice President Dick Cheney as U.S. troops massed along the border between Kuwait and Iraq on the eve of the war. "Wildly off the mark," blustered Rumsfeld's deputy, Paul Wolfowitz, in response to then-Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki's estimate that more than 200,000 troops would be needed as a post-war occupation force.



Yeah -- right.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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billvon    3,088

billvon
>Iraq is, in fact, no longer an ally of Al Qaeda or funding terrorism.

Iraq never was an ally of Al Qaeda. Or, to put it better, they were as much an ally as they are now i.e. they are allowing Al Qaeda entrance into their borders, and not stopping them immediately. Al Qaeda camps are open near the border. Iraqis are supporting them.

>At any time, has our leadership said this would be over quickly?

MUNICH, Germany - Defeating Iraq would be quick work that wouldn't require full American mobilization, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Friday as he launched a European visit to secure broader support for a war. (2/8/03)

"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators," Vice President Cheney said March 16 on NBC's Meet The Press. (7/9/2003)

>The attack against the UN should ring a bell to those that think this
> is solely about the USA that terrorist organizations are out to cause
> strife throughout any western world symbol. It also reinforces that
> we must stay until the job is done.

I think you're right. I just dread the nightmare this will evolve into. Hundreds, if not thousands, of US soldiers dead in our very own Israeli-Palestinian war. A more or less permanent occupation of two countries, countries in which many people want us dead.

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dove    0

dove
May I butt in and take this opportunity to remind you that there are still tons of our soldiers over there who would LOVE to get a care package. If you know anyone who has family or friends over there, get an address and send out some goodies and well wishes. If you need addresses, I can supply! I know lots of good men and women in Iraq who would be delighted to get a package. :)


Fall in dove.

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quade    4

quade
Quote


The Times has all the credibility in the world right now.... not!



Uh, I think you're confusing the Los Angeles Times (a fairly credible newspaper) with the New York Times (a totally separate entity.)

Ok, so if you still don't like either those papers, how about the The Fayetteville Observer?

http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story.php?Template=opinion&Story=5828248
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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kmcguffee    0

kmcguffee
It is a damned shame that everything isn't rosey after 3-4 months. WE CAN'T WAIT ANY LONGER! GET IT FIXED BUSH!

This war on terror is really an inconvenience. Especially this Iraq thingy.


"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

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quade    4

quade
I don't think that any reasonable person would disagree that this issue will take time to resolve itself.

However, I think it's a matter of promises made (by GWB, Rumsfield, ect) versus what has been delivered.

They over promised and under delivered.
quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

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Gawain    0

Gawain
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>At any time, has our leadership said this would be over quickly?

MUNICH, Germany - Defeating Iraq would be quick work that wouldn't require full American mobilization, U.S. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said Friday as he launched a European visit to secure broader support for a war. (2/8/03)

"My belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators," Vice President Cheney said March 16 on NBC's Meet The Press. (7/9/2003)



1) Defeating Saddam's army quickly and ensuring liberation, representative government, stabalizing the economy are two things.

2) I saw many a picture and video replays of the joy the Iraqis expressed in the hours after our goals in Baghdad were achieved. What news were you watching?

These references are the weakest I think I've ever seen you cite. Tsk tsk. :P

Again, at no time did our leadership say this war against terrorism would be quick.

Need a reference? How long were we in Japan after WWII? How long were we Germany? Italy? How long were we in the Balkans before Europe finally woke up to the fact that we saved hundreds of thousands from genocide?
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

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