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Gawain 0
QuoteDid England come to Iraq with us?
Was Spain on the US side?
You left out about thirty countries that sided with the US, in spite of France, Germany and the UN.
Also, the US' recent overture to allow a new resolution to provide more internationalization in Iraq was a political olive branch to help France and Germany save face. They blew it.
There are serveral forces on the ground in Iraq, with independent preparations being made for other troops going to Iraq (Japan, Belgium to name a couple).
I want to stress a couple significant events that is getting overlooked by the media the past couple weeks:
1) The US gesture to garner more multilateral efforts with the UN in Iraq. Why do that now? We tried, and failed in 2001, and 2002. What's the significance that we would offer even the possibility of yet another resolution? What political efforts allowed that and what are the possible rewards to reap if "you finally hop on board". What are the possibly ramifications if "you don't get with the program"?
2) President Bush's freezing of funds of political leaders of Hamas. This is an important step in that we are no longer going to make a distinction between the political and military leadership of Hamas since they rushed to take responsibility for the latest bus bombing in Israel. This is an option that we've had at our disposal for some time, with similar promises for peace efforts at stake. Why do that now? This wasn't the first or last bus bomb for sure. By freezing the political body out of the Palestinian Authority there is now a visible distinction, why is that needed now? What will that prepare us for?
I believe that we will see very significant news in the next 45 days or so that will shed light on these decisions. Just a premonition.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Do you guys and gals remember when the news was just news?
Facts given with no speculation or emotional attachment?
That is news.
Personally I like fox, I am generally a bit right of center on most issues, but on others I am left. I know from my experience and my view points that the general media is slightly left. I don't need facts to know that, I watch many news casts from different outlets every day. I also know that Fox leans slightly right, because I too watch them everyday.
Shows like O'reillys show is great IMO because it is a new concept. Bill says he is independent, but I know he is a bit right of that. But for the most part he is fair. THe incident with donahue and the guy billvon just show a small segment of is not the norm, but it is clearly stated by Bill that he Will not allow spin or emotions on his show. The gentleman (Glick) who lost his father was showing a good deal of emotion and was playing the blame game to explain his Fathers death.
Chris
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
Facts given with no speculation or emotional attachment?
That is news.
Personally I like fox, I am generally a bit right of center on most issues, but on others I am left. I know from my experience and my view points that the general media is slightly left. I don't need facts to know that, I watch many news casts from different outlets every day. I also know that Fox leans slightly right, because I too watch them everyday.
Shows like O'reillys show is great IMO because it is a new concept. Bill says he is independent, but I know he is a bit right of that. But for the most part he is fair. THe incident with donahue and the guy billvon just show a small segment of is not the norm, but it is clearly stated by Bill that he Will not allow spin or emotions on his show. The gentleman (Glick) who lost his father was showing a good deal of emotion and was playing the blame game to explain his Fathers death.
Chris
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
Shows like O'reillys show is great IMO because it is a new concept. Bill says he is independent, but I know he is a bit right of that. But for the most part he is fair.
I think that a person can be indepent and still lean left or right. IMO being independent allows a person to chose on each issue.
never pull low......unless you are
SkyDekker 1,465
QuoteHow about you establish a poll and see where DZ.com posters are (note that lots of college students, newbies and California/Florida types so expect some skewing).
and then there are a fair amount of non-americans who post to this forum.
Remster 30
Quoteand then there are a fair amount of non-americans who post to this forum.
We dont count... we're foreign
Remster
QuoteQuoteand then there are a fair amount of non-americans who post to this forum.
We dont count... we're foreign
Finally; the voice of reason.
never pull low......unless you are
turtlespeed 226
QuoteQuoteDoes anyone else think that that woudl be really neccessary? Why should I have to overstate the obvious?
Yes it is necessary.
Second, it would not be overstating the obvious, but proving an idea you are presenting.
I'm not sure what you would consider "proof", I'll offer this though....
http://www.thbookservice.com/BookPage.asp?prod_cd=C5866
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
FOX being fair and balanced:
- Geraldo...need I say more.
And as for O'Reilly:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77898,00.html
"The top brass at the Red Cross make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, so they don't need my donations. I'm officially boycotting the Red Cross until they change their national leadership and their attitude." O'Reilly March 13, 2002
And he lies:
- Geraldo...need I say more.
And as for O'Reilly:
QuoteWe'd save lives because Mexican wetbacks, whatever you want to call them, the coyotes -- they're not going to do what they're doing now, so people aren't going to die in the desert.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,77898,00.html
"The top brass at the Red Cross make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, so they don't need my donations. I'm officially boycotting the Red Cross until they change their national leadership and their attitude." O'Reilly March 13, 2002
And he lies:
Quote"Lise Rousseau, Lafayette, Colo.: 'Mr. O'Reilly, imagine my confusion as I watched you criticize the protester for organizing the Limbaugh boycott. Last August, I heard you tacitly call for a boycott against Pepsi for hiring [the rap singer] Ludacris. There is a lack of consistency in your rhetoric.'
"No, there isn't. ... First of all, I never do anything tacitly. I do things directly. I simply said I wasn't going to drink Pepsi while that guy was on their payroll. No boycott was ever mentioned by me. " [Italics Chatterbox's.]
—Bill O'Reilly on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Feb. 4, 2003.
Quote"So I'm calling for all responsible Americans to fight back and punish Pepsi for using a man who degrades women, who encourages substance abuse, and does all the things that hurt particularly the poor in our society.
"I'm calling for all Americans to say, Hey, Pepsi, I'm not drinking your stuff. [Italics Chatterbox's.] You want to hang around with Ludacris, you do that, I'm not hanging around with you."
—Bill O'Reilly on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Aug. 27, 2002.
Quote"Because of pressure by Factor viewers [italics Chatterbox's], Pepsi-Cola late today capitulated. Ludacris has been fired."
—Bill O'Reilly on Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Aug. 28, 2002.
And then there's Hannity....quoting numbers from the US Geological Survey. Until RFK, Jr. pulled the paper that was supposedly the US Geological survey out of his hand and it was an advertisement from the Energy Steward Alliance. An energy company lobbying group.
http://www.americanpolitics.com/20010517FOX.html
http://www.americanpolitics.com/20010517FOX.html
rehmwa 2
why do people who are new to skydiving have less valid opinions? Why does getting a college education invalidate your views? Why does being from California or Florida make your credibility questionable? Your biases are disturbing at the very least.
Help, I'm being attacked!! Actually, you'll have to answer your own questions, because I never wrote those statements. Do you frequently feel invalidated? Maybe it's because of your emotional outbursts to perfectly good questions.
Really now, all people have valid views, read what I wrote. Did you even read it, or do you just have a victim problem today?
The teachers at the universities do have a 'leaning', the students are getting that every day. Read the news. Also, I've been to school and know it first hand, and hear it in the news and from current students at college. I'm saying "be aware", I didn't not say it is invalid, just that any poll will have be weighed toward that demographic.
California = a certain demographic. same discussion, be aware
Florida, I think that's somewhat different and shouldn't have lumped it into the same group as Cali.
Please don't accuse me of bias until we talk it out. Your note is out of line. Typical emotional response to a request for data, "More info must equal some kind of bias! Why can't my position be supported without all these FACTS"
I like a lot of your other posts, though. But that's not going to help here.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
rehmwa 2
Actually, the college level political indoctrination does fade away after time to reasonable levels. It must have to do with living in the real world. It's kind of sad, any kind of idealism, even misplaced is healthy and good for the world.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
He had the courtesy to stop himself before bitching the guy out. He lost his temper, as many do. BUT the guy still had his say before Bill cut him off, and Bill didn't shit down his throat.
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Blondes do have more fun!
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Blondes do have more fun!
QuoteThe teachers at the universities do have a 'leaning', the students are getting that every day.
Right, and the public education system has a 'leaning' as well.
By the turn of the century, America's new educrats were pushing a new form of schooling with a new mission (and it wasn't to teach). The famous philosopher and educator John Dewey wrote in 1897:
Every teacher should realize he is a social servant set apart for the maintenance of the proper social order and the securing of the right social growth.
In his 1905 dissertation for Columbia Teachers College, Elwood Cubberly—the future Dean of Education at Stanford—wrote that schools should be factories "in which raw products, children, are to be shaped and formed into finished products...manufactured like nails, and the specifications for manufacturing will come from government and industry."
The next year, the Rockefeller Education Board—which funded the creation of numerous public schools—issued a statement which read in part:
In our dreams...people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.
At the same time, William Torrey Harris, US Commissioner of Education from 1889 to 1906, wrote:
Ninety-nine [students] out of a hundred are automata, careful to walk in prescribed paths, careful to follow the prescribed custom. This is not an accident but the result of substantial education, which, scientifically defined, is the subsumption of the individual.
In that same book, The Philosophy of Education, Harris also revealed:
The great purpose of school can be realized better in dark, airless, ugly places.... It is to master the physical self, to transcend the beauty of nature. School should develop the power to withdraw from the external world.
Several years later, President Woodrow Wilson would echo these sentiments in a speech to businessmen:
We want one class to have a liberal education. We want another class, a very much larger class of necessity, to forego the privilege of a liberal education and fit themselves to perform specific difficult manual tasks.
Writes Gatto: "Another major architect of standardized testing, H.H. Goddard, said in his book Human Efficiency (1920) that government schooling was about 'the perfect organization of the hive.'"
While President of Harvard from 1933 to 1953, James Bryant Conant wrote that the change to a forced, rigid, potential-destroying educational system had been demanded by "certain industrialists and the innovative who were altering the nature of the industrial process."
In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately. We were to become good worker-drones, with a razor-thin slice of the population—mainly the children of the captains of industry and government—to rise to the level where they could continue running things.
This was the openly admitted blueprint for the public schooling system, a blueprint which remains unchanged to this day. Although the true reasons behind it aren't often publicly expressed, they're apparently still known within education circles. Clinical psychologist Bruce E. Levine wrote in 2001:
I once consulted with a teacher of an extremely bright eight-year-old boy labeled with oppositional defiant disorder. I suggested that perhaps the boy didn't have a disease, but was just bored. His teacher, a pleasant woman, agreed with me. However, she added, "They told us at the state conference that our job is to get them ready for the work world…that the children have to get used to not being stimulated all the time or they will lose their jobs in the real world."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/edu/school-mission.htm
QuoteHe had the courtesy to stop himself before bitching the guy out. He lost his temper, as many do. BUT the guy still had his say before Bill cut him off, and Bill didn't shit down his throat.
Yeah...while the Mike was on
QuoteFrom a February 4 interview on the The O’Reilly Factor, a Fox News program. Jeremy Glick, whose father was killed in the World Trade Center on September 11, reported that after the interview O’Reilly said to him, “Get out of my studio before I tear you to fucking pieces.”
rehmwa 2
QuoteWe dont count... we're foreign
You count, but that demographic would really skew the results.
Maybe treat it as a different poll. Then sort out the input variable of foreign/domestic. It might be an effect, it might not.
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
turtlespeed 226
QuoteThe teachers at the universities do have a 'leaning', the students are getting that every day. Read the news. Also, I've been to school and know it first hand, and hear it in the news and from current students at college. I'm saying "be aware"
I now live in a so called college town.
I have spoken to different people that attend college and have heard their
opinions of the proffesors there.
Simply astounding what the political saence groups come out with.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
billvon 3,107
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>He had the courtesy to stop himself before bitching the guy out.
"Shut up! Shut up!" would be an example of how he courteously kept his cool?
>BUT the guy still had his say before Bill cut him off, and Bill didn't
>shit down his throat.
So allowing someone to talk until they say something you disagree with, then cutting them off, is "allowing him to have his say?" By that standard, just about everyone out there (Moore and Franken included) are courteous and fair.
O'Reilly is usually a pretty reasonable guy. The above example is NOT an example of that.
"Shut up! Shut up!" would be an example of how he courteously kept his cool?
>BUT the guy still had his say before Bill cut him off, and Bill didn't
>shit down his throat.
So allowing someone to talk until they say something you disagree with, then cutting them off, is "allowing him to have his say?" By that standard, just about everyone out there (Moore and Franken included) are courteous and fair.
O'Reilly is usually a pretty reasonable guy. The above example is NOT an example of that.
rehmwa 2
What does the political science group come out with
Heeee heeee
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
Heeee heeee
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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants
kiltboy 0
QuoteYou left out about thirty countries that sided with the US, in spite of France, Germany and the UN.
Also, the US' recent overture to allow a new resolution to provide more internationalization in Iraq was a political olive branch to help France and Germany save face. They blew it.
There are serveral forces on the ground in Iraq, with independent preparations being made for other troops going to Iraq (Japan, Belgium to name a couple).
I'm not sure where you're going with the post but I'd like to discuss one or two points.
I'm not so sure that the extention to France and Germany was an olive branch but a way to rotate more US troops back to the states and replace them with a multinational force. It's almost trying to get international backing when the peace has ran into problems.
Not a bad idea but why should those countries share the burden of a conflict that they opposed. Why should they allow their troops to die when their opinions were dismissed as "Old Europe"?
Japan cannot send troops as their constitution forbids them from serving in a war zone. I'm not sure what the Belgian Army union will say with a deployment to Iraq as they have to be in hard barracks and refuse to live in tents.
I haven't heard much of the crack Uzbekistan light infantry's involvement in what is currently going on though I have heard of the US, Brits, Australians, Danes, and Poles. I would tone down the 30 countries claim and look at the numbers closer and see what contribution those countries actually make.
There are countries in NATO that have a hard time working with the US as their training and equipment isn't up to the same level so I doubt the Uzbeki's are cracking on with the big boys.
I can't see there being another resolution myself as I think the US will have to stabilise Iraq before many more countries would want to get involved in cleaning it up. They don't seem to have any influence in Washington so why should they bother?
The Isreali peace process is another matter that is way more complicated than Iraq so I'll reserve comment.
David
Quote>He had the courtesy to stop himself before bitching the guy out.
"Shut up! Shut up!" would be an example of how he courteously kept his cool?
>BUT the guy still had his say before Bill cut him off, and Bill didn't
>shit down his throat.
So allowing someone to talk until they say something you disagree with, then cutting them off, is "allowing him to have his say?" By that standard, just about everyone out there (Moore and Franken included) are courteous and fair.
O'Reilly is usually a pretty reasonable guy. The above example is NOT an example of that.
As I said, he lost his cool, and that happens to everyone now and again. But one example compared to how many opportunities? I've seen him get really upset and disgusted by something someone says, and yet, he's is 99% of the time able to shrug it off and "let the viewers decide".
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Blondes do have more fun!
billvon 3,107
>Japan cannot send troops as their constitution forbids them from serving in a war zone.
I think that's OK. Our definition of war seems to change depending on need. If we need a story about a quick victory of US troops over a brutal dictator? Then the war's over; we won. If you need another hundred billion or so for fighting in Iraq? Then we're still at war. If you need to remove just a few insiginificant rights from the Bill of Rights? Then there's a war on terror, man! When we're at war it's OK to stretch that document a bit.
So in order to get Japanese troops into the area, I'm sure we'd be willing to concede that the war is over - at least until after they have arrived.
I think that's OK. Our definition of war seems to change depending on need. If we need a story about a quick victory of US troops over a brutal dictator? Then the war's over; we won. If you need another hundred billion or so for fighting in Iraq? Then we're still at war. If you need to remove just a few insiginificant rights from the Bill of Rights? Then there's a war on terror, man! When we're at war it's OK to stretch that document a bit.
So in order to get Japanese troops into the area, I'm sure we'd be willing to concede that the war is over - at least until after they have arrived.
I would have too.
Chris
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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty
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