Bin Laden family protected by US

[whocares 0]

Yes...

Can you source your liftings? By this I mean, since you are not providing any link and/or indicia otherwise, and I know you didn't write this (look at the times of posting...) please provide a source that you took this from. Interesting reading, so I would like to see the sites you've c/p'd these articles from. Thanks.***

Thanks MIKED10270 nice to see i am not so full of crap. It seems people just like to argue here when the facts are out there to be found

The source is google. just type in what you are looking for.

[whocares 0]

We can also blame Bill Clinton for not killing Osamma when he had the chances too.

Quote

If anyone should be blamed in these attacks, it should be Bill Clinton and Janet Reno, who failed to provide any meaningful response to three attacks by Bin Laden that killed 248 people, who threw open the nation's doors to immigration by anyone who might vote Democratic, and who sent 160 armed agents to conduct a nighttime raid to deport a 6-year old Cuban boy, gassing bystanders in the process, but failed to stop 19 terrorists from entering the country, overstaying their visas, and training at U.S. flight schools. This, in fact, is the lesson to be learned from 9/11 -- to fight terrorism, you must fight it in its infancy, before the terrorists have a chance to attack, and destroy those who support terrorism. Just going after Bin Laden and Al Quada isn't enough -- we must go after all of those incipient terrorist movements that might someday try to follow in Bin Laden's sordid footprints.

http://truthnews.com/comment/2002_05_intelligence_911.html

[Michele 1]

Quote

But, as I've said a few times before... The Enemy of Your Enemy is NOT neccessarily your friend!!!

you won't find me disagreeing with that, Mike...LOL, not at all.

Quote

Meanwhile, a Fatwa was declared against the Godless Communists in Afghanistan and the call went out to all good (& murderous) Muslims to join the fight. Off went Osama to Afghanistan, & YES, there is western newsreel footage of Osama the freedom fighter in a Mujahedeen camp. At 6'3" he did kind of stand out.

Never will you find me debating that.

What happens, though, is people think we "selected" OBL for training, for some special reason. That is not the fact...and yet, people persist in insisting that it is that way. It's easier, I suppose, then looking at the real data - he was part of a movement that we could not fight openly; a war against communism fought by proxy, as it were...and because of that, funds and training were dispersed...but NOT directly to OBL, nor because of OBL.

That distinction, it seems, is hard for some folks to grasp.

Further, when OBL and his group splintered off from the Mujahadin, funding arguably stopped. OBL's history is somewhat sketchy after that, but there are some places we can trace him to - mainly Sudan, where he was expelled in '96 (I believe - maybe 94-95). Further study of this man and his followers, the ideology, and the missed opportunities from subsequent administrations is something to be discussed (and I don't have time right now...maybe later....).

Quote

Yep, 9/11 is all lloyd-George & Woodrow Wilson's fault.

LOL, I suppose you could say that....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[miked10270 0]

Hi Michele,

"People think we selected OBL for training"

In a way, yes.

As I said, at 6'3" tall OBL DID stand out from the average, less than nourished Afghani. Also, he was relatively rich, well dressed, spoke excellent English, was a Saudi (which as we all know is a "nice" country - very friendly & pro-western),.... Etc... Etc...

In effect, he was one of the easiest people to talk to in that situation. Perhaps not selected by name, rather selected by circumstance.

Unfortunately, at the time we interpereted his beliefs as "anti-Soviet" rather than "anti-First World". We thought he was anti communist when in fact he was an Islamic xenophobe whose hatred of "The Lesser Satan" (the Soviets) was slightly greater than his hatred of "The Great Satan" at that particular time.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Michele 1]

Quote

thanks MIKED10270 nice to see i am not so full of crap.

When did I say you were?

Quote

It seems people just like to argue here when the facts are out there to be found

Yes, you're right....the "facts" are out there to be found. Such as Carter beginning the black ops funding of the Mujahadeen, and Reagan increasing the funding. Or even when MAK was founded, and when AQ was founded, and the reasons for the ideological splits between the two. And the assassination via car bomb of the head of the MAK. Or even that Clinton had 4 opportunities to apprehend OBL, and did not attempt to. Et cetera.

Anyway, I am running off to the DZ...Whocares, rest assured I didn't say you were full of crap, just asked for sourcings. Sorry you found that insulting.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

if you don't have a good grasp of world politics and history, and the interweavings of allies and how they change from moment to moment, then you will have the opinion "we should've never..."

I agree Michele. If we start expecting anyone to predict the future before making decisions, not much will get done. Decisions are made in the context of the time.

Decision at the time was: The Russians invaded Afghanistan. The Russians are technologically dominant. The Afghans are dying.

Should we do nothing? How about that? Watch them all be exterminated?

The Afghan people were not big world players at the moment. The best assumption was that they would revert to their former lifestyle. The choice was to help them.

Essentially, the Afghans didn't become a problem. Bin Laden did. He is a Saudi, like most of the hijackers. We went to Afghanistan to get him.

Helping the Afghans was a good choice at the time. People who choose to never do anything will never be leaders.

[miked10270 0]

Hi Happythoughts,

Quote

Decision at the time was: The Russians invaded Afghanistan. The Russians are technologically dominant. The Afghans are dying.

Gotta disagree there... I think it was more "The Russians are in Afghanistan. From there they can bring pressure to bear on the middle east. THAT's WHERE WE GET OUR OIL!!!! Is anybody opposing them? .... Good, they sound like nice people, our kind of people... Give them some guns & stuff"

Quote

Should we do nothing? How about that? Watch them all be exterminated?

"We've gotta stop Soviet expansion in the mid-east! How can we do that in a waay that doesn't involve us supporting countries in the same way as we support South Korea, Germany, South Vietnam?"

Quote

The Afghan people were not big world players at the moment. The best assumption was that they would revert to their former lifestyle. The choice was to help them.

They largely did, but instead of the communist regime that would have happened if the west hadn't supported the Mujaheddin, they went Islamic Fundamentalist & supported the killing of the "Non-believers".

Quote

Essentially, the Afghans didn't become a problem. Bin Laden did. He is a Saudi, like most of the hijackers. We went to Afghanistan to get him.

And where was the outcry against AMERICAN attack jets & helicopter gunships when the west did exactly what the Soviets did in Afghanistan 20 years earlier? (Sorry - rhetorical question).

Quote

Helping the Afghans was a good choice at the time. People who choose to never do anything will never be leaders.

Very true. At the time no-one could have predicted the actions of Mikhail Gorbachev and the ultimate collapse of the Soviet Communist political model. But the study of history is the dissection of the decisions made and their consequences, in the hope that similar mistakes won't be made again (HAH!).

It's not a case of "We should have never". It's more a case of "What went right? What went wrong? How and, most importantly... WHY?"

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

I think it's funny that when they think Moore is wrong, he is "inventing a jet" to "reinforce the stereotypes of republicans as callous and greedy people," but when they think Moore is right, political opinions are "outside the scope of this page."

It is absolutely true that Bin Ladens relatives were allowed to leave the country. For good reasons, they were part of the family that repudiated Osama years ago.

Quote

After Osama became the prime suspect in the attacks, more than 20 family members, mostly his nieces and nephews, were urgently evacuated from the United States on Sept. 20 because some feared reprisals from Americans, family spokesman Tim Metz said.

clicky

Moore was right that the govt allowed the family to leave, but then he attributes it to some evil Republican motives. What Moore did is twist (read lie here) the motives for his own political agenda. That is what most people hate about him, he lies.

The Bin Laden family has been in the US for years. Remember that Osama is one of 52 children. They donated $2 million dollars to Harvard. One of the brothers graduated with a law degree from Harvard.

[wmw999 2,589]

Quote

Moore did is twist (read lie here) the motives for his own political agenda. That is what most people hate about him, he lies.

Anyone who has an agenda picks their facts. Do you really think otherwise?

Michael Moore can make movies that get people talking about fairly substantive issues. That's a good thing. Where he falls down (and Rush falls down in the same way) is that he inserts himself into those movies, so that he, rather than the content, becomes the topic of discussion.

How to pay him back? Talk about the substantive issues, and ignore him.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Marz 0]

These conversations still make my blood boil...

Simply put, the American foreign policy is now coming back to bite them in the ass. The "truth" about Bin Laden and Hussein is clouded right now in both a right-wing and a left-wing agenda. We'll ge to the facts as time goes on.

However, here's some things that have been documented ad-infinitum regarding American interest turned sour:

1954: Guatemala
CIA overthrows the democratically elected Jacob Arbenz in a military coup.

1959: Haiti
The U.S. military helps "Papa Doc" Duvalier become dictator of Haiti.

1961; Ecuador
The CIA-backed military forces the democratically elected President Jose Velasco to resign.

1963: Dominican Republic
The CIA overthrows the democratically elected Juan Bosch in a military coup.

1964: Brazil
A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the democratically elected government of Joao Goulart. The junta that replaces it will, in the next two decades, become one of the most bloodthirsty in history.

1970: Cambodia
The CIA overthrows Prince Sihanouk, who is highly popular among Cambodians for keeping them out of the Vietnam War. He is replaced by CIA puppet Lon Nol, who immediately throws Cambodian troops into battle.


1971: Bolivia
After half a decade of CIA-inspired political turmoil, a CIA-backed military coup overthrows the leftist President Juan Torres. In the next two years, dictator Hugo Banzer will have over 2,000 political opponents arrested without trial, then tortured, raped and executed.

1973: Chile
The CIA overthrows and assassinates Salvador Allende, Latin America's first democratically elected socialist leader. The problems begin when Allende nationalizes American-owned firms in Chile. ITT offers the CIA $1 million for a coup (reportedly refused). The CIA replaces Allende with General Augusto Pinochet, who will torture and murder thousands of his own countrymen in a crackdown on labor leaders and the political left.

1983: Honduras
The CIA gives Honduran military officers the Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual - 1983, which teaches how to torture people. Honduras' notorious "Battalion 316" then uses these techniques, with the CIA's full knowledge, on thousands of leftist dissidents. At least 184 are murdered.

1989: Panama
The U.S. invades Panama to overthrow a dictator of its own making, General Manuel Noriega. Noriega has been on the CIA's payroll since 1966, and has been transporting drugs with the CIA's knowledge since 1972.

[whocares 0]

Thanks for more solid facts. Time for America to open its eyes.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

Quote

I didn't realize this. Where and in what field did the US government train UBL and Hussein?

And then you replied...

Quote

I dont have the specifics, the CIA trained Ossama.

The problem with your argument, even if it's true, is you do not support it in any way. There is nothing independently verifiable in your statement,

When Osama left Saudi Arabia in 1979 to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. The Afghan "jihad" was backed financially by the CIA and Saudi Arabia. This training, funding, hardware was facilitated by the ISI (Pakistan's intelligence service). What has no real substance is the idea that the US directly helped the mujahideen during the Soviet occupation.

After the Soviets withdrew from Afghanistan, Bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia to work in the family business, but was expelled in 1991 (and disowned) because of he was trying to position a power base against the royal family. This was also the time when he was trying to position his "army" to defend the kingdom from Iraq, but when he was rebuffed, he was firmly entrenched against anything and everything the US had ties to.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[WFFC 1]

Quote

The article is very interesting reading, but more of an Editorial commentary rather than "reporting"...still interesting, however...it's always good to read opinions and perspectives.

I just did a quick search on mujahadeem and that came back. I will admit, I didn't read the whole article. The first part kind of gave the answer to an earlier question so that's why I posted. The rest of the discussion has been very spirited to say the least.

[whocares 0]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I didn't realize this. Where and in what field did the US government train UBL and Hussein?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And then you replied...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I dont have the specifics, the CIA trained Ossama.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem with your argument, even if it's true, is you do not support it in any way. There is nothing independently verifiable in your statement,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

***



You are using two different statements from two different people?

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

Anyone who has an agenda picks their facts. Do you really think otherwise?

I don't have an argument with the facts. The facts are the same for both me and Michael Moore. The problem that I have with MM is the way that he proposes some sinister motive for the action.

Other than Osama, the Bin Laden family has had peaceful motives in the US. Real Estate holdings in Boston and Texas. The family of 50-plus (7 wives) children was respected in many places in the world before 9/11. The relatives were transported out of the country to shield them from harm. MM comes up with some evil conspiracy.

[fseven 0]

Fun with links folks.. Sorry, I got a little carried away with google. I've seen a lot of discussion, but not a lot of posting of links so I thought I'd help.

My short opinion, the US has been very short-sighted in supporting some groups. As mentioned in a previous post, the whole 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend' attitude falls apart when the main enemy is no longer present. Then we're stuck with an enemy that we have financially or logistically supported. Oops.

On the subject of us flying the bin ladens out of the country, big deal. I think we realized that the family is not the enemy. Maybe Bush's prior oil dealings with the Bin Laden family had something to do with it too

Have fun reading!

NOTE: I don't believe everything I read on the internet. Just because it's posted on a page doesn't make it true. I'm not sure about these sites individually and I make no guarantee that they are a credible news source or some 'joe blow' conspiracy web site.

Stingers, Stingers, Who's Got the Stingers?
http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2001/011002-attack03.htm

Politics of a Covert Action: The U.S., the Mujahideen, and the Stinger Missile
http://www.ksgcase.harvard.edu/case.htm?PID=1546

Darunta complex: This group of al-Qaida training bases outside Jalalabad is one of the organization's largest. The compound includes a base built by the Central Intelligence Agency for rebels during the 1979-1989 Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
http://multimedia.belointeractive.com/attack/military/1007militaryresponse.html

According to the Central Intelligence Agency, which helped arm the anti-Soviet Mujahedeen, bin Laden had between 12,000 and 20,000 supporters trained in arms, explosives and the use of U.S. Stinger missiles
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/1/3/214858.shtml

While the American government admits that it funded Afghanistan and assisted in training some Afghans, the official line - so far - is that it did not train bin Laden personally.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/indepth/background/wtc_questionbinladen.html

The Rumor Mill Continues to Grind Out 9-11 Tales, Some Nutty and Some With a Grain of Truth
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0719-08.htm

Stinger missiles can surprise its creators
http://www.dawn.com/2001/09/29/nat21.htm

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

Thanks MIKED10270 nice to see i am not so full of crap. It seems people just like to argue here when the facts are out there to be found

The problem is that you have not presented facts. You have presented opinions. You've also said that the US "trained" Hussein and then presented some vague story that he received brief training from the CIA. I assumed you meant military or terrorist training not espionage training (which is what you article was talking about). My bad, even though I seriously doubt your sources.

Anyway, what does it matter. The US also trained Timothy McVeigh (US Army), Lee Harvey Oswald (US Marines), and Benedict Arnold (US Army). They all later turned out to be fairly anti-US. Like Michelle said, it was in our best interest at the time. The government doesn't have the advantage of 20/20 hindsight like you.

Quote

The source is google. just type in what you are looking for.

Do you realize that Google is a search engine, not a source? Here is a big one. Listen carefully. Not everything on the internet is true. Yeah, I'm not lying. Some things on the internet are incorrect! Damn, just ruins your day doesn't it.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

My short opinion, the US has been very short-sighted in supporting some groups.

That is pretty much the point. Which groups are the correct groups? In hindsight, it's pretty easy. How do you determine which groups will become our enemies 20 years from now?

We helped Russia fight Germany in 1945. In 1970, we had troops stationed in Germany to help counter the threat of Russia tank divisions.

Is there action in any country that you support?

For instance, Bosnia. There was ethnic cleansing going on. Should the US have stayed out of Bosnia? What will Bosnia do 20 years from now?

In Africa today, do we stand by while one tribe commits genocide on another? Ethnic genocide has been determined to be a bad idea since Germany tried it. Should we stay out of the way and let it happen? Will the new govt be worse? In what crystal ball do we find that answer? Will the new govt hate the US 20 years from now? 10?

Most of the Monday morning quarterbacks can tell which decisions were the bad ones in retrospect. However, they refused to be on the field on Sunday.

[Michele 1]

hi, Whocares...

Some discussion on funding, timelines, et al re: AQ, MAK, et al is contained below. OBL/AQ activities in the 1990's...(taken from a previous post dated May 22, 2003, Link

"OBL was placed on the FBI's Most Wanted list June 07, 1999. If there was ample enough evidence at that point, it had been known for many years that OBL was a significant danger. By the time he had been placed on the list, AQ/OBL was known for the following:

~ 1993: Bin-Ladin was involved in operations against US troops in Somalia (Blackhawk Down).
~ 1993 (February) thought to have been involved in some of the planning of the first WTC bombing.
~ 1995 it is thought that OBL financed something called a "Gulf Battalion" organized by the IGR (Iranian Guards of the Revolution). It seems OBL had convinced Yemeni Sheik Abd-al-Majid al-Zandani to strategically position troops of the "Gulf Battalion" in al-Zandani's camps in Yemen for rapid use in Gulf countries when circmustances permited.
~ 1996 OBL is suspected by the US of being responsible for bomb attacks on American troops in Dharan, Saudi Arabia.
~ In mid-1996 a meeting of various leaders gatehred by OBL obtained an agreement "to use force to confront all foreign forces stationed on Islamic land," and to form a planning committee of sorts.
~ 1996 (August) OBL publically issued his fatwah "Declaration of War" against the United States.
~ 1996 (November) while denying culpability, he praised the bombings in Riyadh and the Khobar Towers in Saudi Arabia, and promised other attacks would follow. He finally admitted the Blackhawk Down attacks on U.S. military personnel in Somalia and Yemen, declaring that "we used to hunt them down in Mogadishu".
~ 1997 (February)OBL states in a broadcast interview that "if someone can kill an American soldier, it is better than wasting time on other matters."
~ 1998 (February) OBL announces the new alliance of terrorist organizations, the "International Islamic Front for Jihad Against the Jews and Crusaders." The Front included the Egyptian al-Gama'at al-Islamiyya, the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, the Harakat ul-Ansar, among other groups. The Front declared its intention to attack Americans, including civilians, anywhere in the world, as well as our allies.
~ 1998 (May) he stated at a press conference in Afghanistan that we would see the results of his threats "in a few weeks."
~ 1998 in August orchestrated bombings of the US Embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, that killed at least 301 individuals and injured more than 5,000 others (here's his "few weeks").


Additionally, he [OBL/AQ] has been implicated in the following plans which were either interrupted or stopped somehow.
~ 1994 Pope john Paul assassination during his visit to Manila
~ 1995 President Clinton assassination during Philippines visit
~ 1995 "Project Bojinka" discovered in Manila; designed to bomb in midair US trans-Pacific flights (sound familiar?) (remind me to someday tell you about the guy who ran this one...interesting link to WTC 93...)
~ 1999, New Years Eve bomb Los Angeles International Airport in 1999. (bad guy was arrested crossing the boarder several days earlier...)
Also plotted to carry out terrorist operations against US and Israeli tourists visiting Jordan for millennial celebrations in late 1999.

Quote

Hell it was the USA that trained Bin Ladin in 1980 and funded him will millions of dollars hell we did the same for old Sudamm too.

To which I replied

Quote

if you run some searches here, you will find that I did my homework many times and presented the history of the funds you are talking about.

here are additional links and excerpt from those postings which discuss further the question of funding...

"Billions were given to the ISI , who then passed it on to several different groups, among them the MAK. AQ was an offshoot begun as a split in ideological issues, and established in 1988. Therefore, AQ didn't exist until 1988 (or thereabouts), and so no funding could've come their way because they didn't even exist.

As I said in my previous post, the funding was a foreign policy decision, made by Carter originally, and increased by Reagan, as a direct response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan at a time when the Cold War was on (but being won)." Link here
Additional commentary re: OBL and funding here...

Moving on...

Quote

According to the Times, bin Laden et al were CIA employees, given the best training, arms, facilities, and lots of cash for many years.

Which "Times"? Los Angeles Times? New York Times? Seattle Times? The Irish Times? The Sunday Times? Lots of different newspapers called the "Times". Since you refuse to source your liftings, at least can you tell me which Times they came from? Or are you just c/ping from other articles, and don't really know which Times? And further questions... how many years? Which years? Was AQ established then or not?

Quote

Next question? Not to hard to find the facts if you take the time.

Yes, I ran a google/Netscape search...the phrase I used to search with was:
"Looking at the history of Afghanistan, we find troubling questions"
What came up was
http://free.freespeech.org/freeessex/stopthewar/roots.htm
Note the second domain name...freeessex....Is this a website you rely on for world political analysis and accurate, factual information?

Quote

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat

and

Quote

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid

This Netscape search turned up 10 sites which all carry the original article by Richard Sele, UPI reporter. But it's a single article, and as far as I can tell, no mainstream media picked it up. I could be wrong in that assumption, but I draw that conclusion from a)the type of website it was carried on, and b)no website of "mainstream" media was indicated or returned in the search.

Again, I ran an additional search, using another post...the phrases I used were:
~""Should we believe that the transformation from employee to enemy has really taken place?""
and
~ "Let's imagine that bin Laden et al are still CIA employees"

What came up was a Emperors-Clothes
Nowhere else was this article published...

Quote

Do your homework next time.

Um, I asked you to run a search to see what had been discussed, debated and argued over for several years. Above, I linked several posts which I spent some time on, and these were done several months ago.

I did my homework...

And you still haven't sourced your Saddam training...can you please do so?

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Muenkel 0]

Swish!

Isn't Michele such a know-it-all?

Don't challenge her, she knows too much. I know from experience. Besides she'll just tell you to talk to the hand.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[whocares 0]

Swish!

Isn't Michele such a know-it-all?

Don't challenge her, she knows too much. I know from experience. Besides she'll just tell you to talk to the hand.
***

HAHA dam she can get the info. Let me put my business, family, and 4 kids on hold and i will see what i can do. YOU WIN.

[billvon 3,120]

>We can also blame Bill Clinton for not killing Osamma when he had the chances too.

He tried and failed. Bush tried and failed. Doing it Bush's way did not get us Bin Laden, and it had the unfortunate side effect of killing 37 US military and over 1000 civilians. Hopefully we will eventually get him, but until then it's still Clinton 0, Bush 0.

[billvon 3,120]

Snopes has apologized for his diatribe against Moore. Good to see that people can admit their mistakes. From the latest Snopes:

----------------------------------
I owe Michael Moore an apology. In a January 2002 interview with Al D'Amato and Alan Colmes of the FOX Network, Michael Moore said:

Why did this country allow the bin Laden family, two days after — two days after September 11 — to fly around America and pick up all the bin Laden relatives, about 24 of them, and take them to Europe? Not a single one of them was interrogated by the FBI.

That set me off on a tirade, and it shouldn't have. Part of Mr. Moore's statement has since been proved to be correct — during the ban on air travel, some Saudis (including members of the bin Laden family) were transported by air to assembly points in the U.S. in preparation for their leaving the country. In an earlier version of this article, I ranted and raved about his avowing bin Laden flights had taken place while no one was allowed to fly. Yet some did, at least within the U.S.

I shouldn't have yelled at him. He was right about that.

Actually, I shouldn't have yelled at him even if he'd been dead wrong about everything. There's no good excuse for my having gotten vitriolic about Michael Moore as I attempted to address the substance of what he said. I regret having done that because it's just flat-out the wrong thing to do under any circumstance. Michael, if you're out there, please know that I am sorry for having said hurtful things. The world is full enough already with pain and miserableness for me to want to add to it or to want to direct any of it your way.

[TheAnvil 0]

I believe the Sudanese offer is actually what he's talking about here.....the one El Jefe Clintonista/Maddy Albright turned down.....
My entry into the thread. Michele is kicking ass.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[TheAnvil 0]

Snopes was vitriolic in his rant about M. Moore, but this apology doesn't change the fact that Moore is a buffoon. He should publicly apologize to Lockheed Martin and the bank whose gun policy he misrepresented in his documentary[sic] Bowling for Columbine - among other people for a variety of other things.

Moore, Franken, et al are going to be used extensively here in the next year to drum up support against the republicans in '04. Unfortunately, the new republican party seems to be whiskey bent and hell-bound on spending like mad-men, causing some of us to wonder if there is any room for conservatives in the new republican big tent. Though we're pissed off about it, the left is so absurd in their argument that those of us ticked off at the current direction of the GOP would rather castrate ourselves with spoons than vote for a leftie for national office.

Ooops! Typed more than I intended. Blah blah blah.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!