Bin Laden family protected by US

[billvon 3,120]

Remember that 'rumor' floating around that Bin Laden's family was flown out of harm's way right after 9/11, when the rest of the aircraft in the country were grounded? Michael Moore claimed this during a TV interview. Snopes claimed it was false, and in fact said (this is from the Google cache):


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Some folks play fast and loose with the facts when they've an axe to grind, however, and in Moore's case his axe is "the dastardly Republicans and how they're responsible for every ill ever visited upon the USA." In this case, inventing a bin Laden jet that secretly flew out of the country while the rest of us were barred from the skies, and peopling it with folks who were spirited out of the FBI's grasp by a U.S. president intent upon paying back some unnamed (but darkly hinted at) favor, is a handy way of reinforcing the stereotype of Republicans as callous and greedy politicians whose paramount values involve money, not people.
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Well, as it turns out, Moore was at least partially right - Bin Laden's family WAS allowed to fly on 9/13 when the rest of the country was grounded, although it took them another day to get out of the country. Snopes recent correction includes:


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-The U.S. government allowed bin Laden family members to fly within the U.S. during a general ban on air travel: True.

This page should be read for what it is: an analysis of some of the commonly-circulated claims about a complex issue (many of which are factually correct or misleading), not a denial of the larger arc of the story. Clearly bin Laden family members were indeed allowed to leave the U.S., with government approval and assistance, shortly after the September 11 attacks (an event which was reported in major newspapers within days of its occurrence), but issues such as whether the decision to let them leave was appropriate are subjective political issues outside the scope of this page.
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I think it's funny that when they think Moore is wrong, he is "inventing a jet" to "reinforce the stereotypes of republicans as callous and greedy people," but when they think Moore is right, political opinions are "outside the scope of this page."

BTW I still think Moore's obnoxious and deceitful. It's too bad that someone like him has to be the one to find this stuff out; it gives him more credibility than he deserves (IMO.)

[SpeedRacer 1]

um this isn't new. Soon after Sep. 11th, certain members of the binLaden family were flown out of the US. I remember reading about it...one of the family members lived in my hometown (Boston).

It's not quite as scary or devious as it sounds...Most of the Bin Laden family has pretty much disowned Osama & haven't even seen or spoken to him in years. Evidently the rest of the family is fairly normal, actually.

Speed Racer
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[lawrocket 3]

Hey, a blind squirrel will occasionally stumble upon an acorn... I had always thought that they were smuggled out in black helicopters...

p.s. Wasn't Clinton given special dispensation to fly back from Australia???

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kmcguffee 0]

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It's not quite as scary or devious as it sounds...Most of the Bin Laden family has pretty much disowned Osama & haven't even seen or spoken to him in years. Evidently the rest of the family is fairly normal, actually

In addition, think of what would have happened to anyone in the US with the last name "Bin Laden" the months following 9/11. Would their death by gun toting rednecks, ie Aggie Dave, been a better outcome. Should we have "detained" them all based on their last name until they were found innocent? What would be your preferred perfect solution with 20/20 hindisght in this situation Bill? It was a lose lose situation for any administration.

Michael Moore is just an idiot grasping for reasons to discredit the Bush administration. To sit around and criticize is the easiest path to take in governmental "participation". This doesn't add anything to his credibility. If he wants credibility, run for a public office. Then we'll see him try to fix some problems instead of running around screaming how corrupt everyone is that is actually trying to do something beneficial. The liberal stars don't seem to want to put their money where their mouth is. They are all bullshit and no horns.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[whocares 0]

Hell it was the USA that trained Bin Ladin in 1980 and funded him will millions of dollars hell we did the same for old Sudamm too.

[kmcguffee 0]

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Hell it was the USA that trained Bin Ladin in 1980 and funded him will millions of dollars hell we did the same for old Sudamm too.

I didn't realize this. Where and in what field did the US government train UBL and Hussein?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[whocares 0]

I dont have the specifics, the CIA trained Ossama.
We gave Sudam a ton of cash and training him to get the Head of Iran, the ioltola Komanie SP.

[78RATS 0]

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gun toting rednecks, ie Aggie Dave

ok he's a redneck
ok he carries a gun

that doesn't make him a .......

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[Michele 1]

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I didn't realize this. Where and in what field did the US government train UBL and Hussein?

And then you replied...

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I dont have the specifics, the CIA trained Ossama.

The problem with your argument, even if it's true, is you do not support it in any way. There is nothing independently verifiable in your statement, so I can't look at it in any real way and consider it good.

If you run some searches net wide, you will find some very interesting information...and if you run some searches here, you will find that I did my homework many times and presented the history of the funds you are talking about.

Remember two things when you're searching...
1. Nothing happens in a vacuum; realize you are dealing with history, countries' stability, and enemies (real or imagined).
2. There is a great deal of information which is not available, and cannot accurately (or should I say, with any confidence) be inferred from dispersed data.

Back to the original statement, the bin Ladin family being taken out of the country is NOT news...this is and has been well known. I recall several comments from news stations about it immediately after 9/11. The family needed the protection...and received it. No big deal then, and none now...

And Michael Moore is an asshat. His hysterical ranting and over the top representations, not to mention his wonderful ability to play fast and loose with factual data and truth is actually funny in a sad kind of way...he is no more an expert than I am a swooper...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[kmcguffee 0]

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The problem with your argument, even if it's true, is you do not support it in any way.

Thank you Michelle. You beat me to it. I have to admit, I've never heard of the training bit.

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And Michael Moore is an asshat.

LMAO. Aaah, so elequently put. You have a way with words.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Muenkel 0]

Ditto!

The liberals are desperate these days. Expect more bullshit. We ain't seen nothing yet.

_________________________________________
Chris

[WFFC 1]

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I have to admit, I've never heard of the training bit.

The U.S. provided training, arms and cash to the Mujahadeem (sp) during the Russian invasion of Afganistan. It's one of the things that been part of the news stories when you see a younger Osama with the hand held radio walking around.

Take a look at this. Scroll about 3/4 of the way down and read the article titled Bomb War-Torn Afghanistan?

[whocares 0]

The U.S. provided training, arms and cash to the Mujahadeem (sp) during the Russian invasion of Afganistan. It's one of the things that been part of the news stories when you see a younger Osama with the hand held radio walking around.
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Looking at the history of Afghanistan, we find troubling questions. Why did America and its ally Saudi Arabia fund and train Osama Bin Ladin in the first place? Why did the US government initially give support to the Taliban?
Afghanistan was a key battleground, - a hotspot - in the 1980's Cold War between the USA and Soviet Russia. It was a pawn in a game of global power. Osama Bin Ladin was a key agent for the west, channeling American CIA and Saudi money into the war. We can remember Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher pledging support for 'Brave Afghan Freedom Fighters'. We may also remember watching the Hollywood blockbuster film 'Rambo 3', which opens with a dedication to the Afghan resistance to Soviet rule! Three Billion dollars worth of CIA money followed.

But is emperors-clothes.com being fair? Was the U.S. government in actual partnership with bin Laden and other "resistance fighters" during the Afghan war? Or was it just giving these guys a little support against a common (Russian) foe?

Since the U.S. side of the relationship with bin Laden and friends was handled by CIA, much of what took place is unknown. But we do know about one very important thing: money.

How much money do you think the US and Saudi Arabia gave the "resistance fighters?" I asked several people this question.

One guessed "a few hundred thousand dollars."

Another thought this was way to low. She guessed "$10-15 million."

The highest guess: $20 million.

The correct answer is: More than 6 billion dollars. (ibid.)

That's in 1980s money. And that’s just what they admit publicly. Remember, the paymasters were the CIA and Saudi Arabian Intelligence, so the real figure could be twice as high, or higher. The sky's the limit...
***
The problem with your argument, even if it's true, is you do not support it in any way. There is nothing independently verifiable in your statement, so I can't look at it in any real way and consider it good. ***
Thank you Michelle. You beat me to it. I have to admit, I've never heard of the training bit.
***
Next question? Not to hard to find the facts if you take the time.

[kmcguffee 0]

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The U.S. is NOT America. The U.S. is a corporation controlled by the unseen shadow government, and is not 'our' government. The people are, after all, the government, and if nobody opted in to their "war", there could be no war.

I don't know if I would quote a source with views like this.

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The USA's CIA trained and armed a group of people in Afghanistan called the Mujahadeem, now known as the Taliban

This statement is also making a big leap. The Taliban rose from a group of religious students in the refugee camps along the Pakistan/Afghani border after the war with the USSR. The Mujahadeen does not equal the Taliban. Maybe some of the same people but not the same group.

The Mujahadeen also does not equal Al Quaida. Al Quaida was a splinter group from the Mujahadeen led by UBL.

It is also a leap to say that we trained UBL IMO. We provided the mujahadeen money, weapons, and training on the weapons that we provided. Some conspiracy theorists claim that we brought some into the US and trained them but they provide no proof. Only theories. Now did UBL receive some of this training as a member of the mujahadeen? Maybe. I would like to see someone prove it.

The source you quoted also said:

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The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops.

We are.

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Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely.

They did.

His whole premise is invading Afghanistan would be too costly for the US because we would have to fight through Pakistan and then Afghanistan. Then this would start a world war between Islam and the West. Doesn't seem like he was very correct.

The funding of the Mujahadeen against the USSR leading to their defeat in Afghanistan was one of the many reasons for the collapse of the USSR. Here is a nice quote to chew on:

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Zbigniew Brzezinski: “What was more important in the world view of history? The Taliban or the fall of the Soviet Empire? A few stirred up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the Cold War?”

Something to think about.

Now, we also have to deal with the statement that the US trained Hussein.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[whocares 0]

A few more facts;

WHO IS BIN LADEN, ACTUALLY?

According to the Times, bin Laden et al were CIA employees, given the best training, arms, facilities, and lots of cash for many years. That's what the Times reported on August 24, 1998.

In other articles during the same period, the Times reported that bin Laden is a deadly enemy of the U.S. The Times skips over this amazing change lightly in a couple of articles, commenting that the relationship changed, without asking too many questions. In other words, once again, the government line is accepted as self evident.

Should we believe that the transformation from employee to enemy has really taken place? Is bin Laden an enemy in fact, or is he, like so much else that comes out of the White House, an enemy in fiction?

Remember that during the 80s our leaders swore bin Laden and friends were good guys: "resistance fighters." Wasn't that a lie? If the government was lying about them then, why couldn't it be lying about them now?

Let's do a little imagining. Let's imagine that bin Laden et al are still CIA employees. Could it be that the missile attack was not intended to destroy bin Laden or his supporters? Could it be the attack was intended to build respect for bin Laden among Muslims who oppose the U.S. government? To lend him credibility as a serious opponent of U.S. domination? Is his new job to siphon Arab anger into regressive Fundamentalist movements and thereby destabilize secular Muslim societies which might resist U.S. control? After all, Islamic Fundamentalists have proven themselves the most effective enemies of independent-minded governments. This is precisely why the U.S. created an Islamic Fundamentalist proxy army in Afghanistan in the first place. And there is evidence the CIA is doing the same thing today in Algeria - covertly supporting a jihad (Islamic holy war) aimed at disrupting a secular Muslim society not under U.S. control.

And/or is bin Laden's new assignment perhaps to be a bogey-man of convenience whom the U.S. government can link to any government it wishes to bomb?

Does this sound crazy? Maybe it does at that, but is it any crazier than the admitted fact that the U.S. gave these vicious terrorists more than $6 billion in the first place? Could it be that the lunatics are indeed in control of the asylum?

Six BILLION dollars in 1980s money. How much is that in today's money? Ten billion? Just think. Instead of turning Afghanistan into a living hell they could have cured cancer.

[kmcguffee 0]

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Since the U.S. side of the relationship with bin Laden and friends was handled by CIA, much of what took place is unknown. But we do know about one very important thing: money.

Exactly! Money is all you know about. But you said the US trained UBL and Hussein.

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Next question? Not to hard to find the facts if you take the time.

No more questions. Still waiting for the original facts.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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WHO IS BIN LADEN, ACTUALLY?

Did you write this or is this a quote. I can find very few facts in it and a tremendous amount of theory. Just calling Bin Laden a CIA employee is laughable.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[whocares 0]

Next question?

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials.

United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

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While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

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According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

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Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.

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Ditto!

The liberals are desperate these days. Expect more bullshit. We ain't seen nothing yet.

Do your homework next time.

[kmcguffee 0]

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Next question?

Still nothing in this book you posted about the United States training Hussein. There is no argument from me that we assisted him, supported Iraq against Iran, etc. But, you said the US trained Hussein.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[whocares 0]

Did you write this or is this a quote. I can find very few facts in it and a tremendous amount of theory. Just calling Bin Laden a CIA employee is laughable. ***

Time magazine was quoted, no i did not write this.
Sorry you dont want to believe the facts , as stated, i am not here to say who is wrong or who is right, why dont you go to the local CIA office and ask them for youself if you feel the need.

People dont want to open there eyes to the truth that the USA help both of these Scumb Bags get more power and training on our dollar.

not to hard to fing out info on google, we will never know the truth just opening some peoples eyes.

[whocares 0]

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and put him through a brief training course, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

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***
through a brief training course

Sorry wrong wording. Trained ot training same thing in my book

[Michele 1]

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Next question?

Yes...

Can you source your liftings? By this I mean, since you are not providing any link and/or indicia otherwise, and I know you didn't write this (look at the times of posting...) please provide a source that you took this from. Interesting reading, so I would like to see the sites you've c/p'd these articles from. Thanks.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

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Take a look at this. Scroll about 3/4 of the way down and read the article titled Bomb War-Torn Afghanistan?

The article is very interesting reading, but more of an Editorial commentary rather than "reporting"...still interesting, however...it's always good to read opinions and perspectives.

However, this came from that page, as well. Granted, it is not what you suggested we look at, but it headed the page you linked to...

The BIG question is: WHO are the masses? You?... the reader? If you have fallen - and continue to fall - for the massive lies, you might consider yourself as a mushroom: kept in the dark, feeding on bullshit, and soon to be gobbled up.

Keep your eye on the REAL target: that is We, the people of America. Keep your eye on Orwellian legislation coming from your state and local governments. THEY - our elected officials - will become our terrorists, captors and jailers, for THEY are no more than putty in the hands of the builders of this New World Order.

I tend to have a hard time with statements like that, irrespective of the fact that many people believe that is happening. Namecalling and bullying the readership just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[Michele 1]

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People dont want to open there eyes to the truth that the USA help both of these Scumb[sic] Bags get more power and training on our dollar.

What you are not understanding, literally, is who's side who was on at the time...if you don't have a good grasp of world politics and history, and the interweavings of allies and how they change from moment to moment, then you will have the opinion "we should've never..." instead of understanding (not agreeing with, necessarily, but understanding at least) how this can happen.

Cidels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[miked10270 0]

Hi Michele,

check out http://www.joric.com/Saddam/Saddam.htm

It's quite long, but a good potted political history of post WWII Iraq.

Short version... YES! Saddam Hussein was "trained & used" by CIA. The Ba'ath party was seen as the only credible alternative to President Qasim and his associations with the Iraqi Communist Party combined with his increasingly totalitarian rule.

In effect, in the late '50s & early '60s it looked to the US that Iraq was "going communist" so the "Democratic" (read opposition) Ba'athist movement was supported.

After Iran went fundamentalist in 1979, the west saw Iraq as a counterbalance to prevent Iranian fundamentalist domination of the region. Hence the weapons, training etc...

In 1980 the Soviet Union entered Afghanistan in support of the then Communist (soviet client) government's losing battle against rising slamic Fundamentalism. Once again "the west" supported the "Democratic" opposition to the Soviet totalitarian regime. The soviet forces (obviously) had "air supremacy" and were using helicopters heavily in Afghanistan. The "Mujhadeen" (which was in fact a VERY loose alliance of otherwise disparate tribes & political factions whose only common ground was a desire to overthrow the pro communist government) were equipped with stuff a lot more advanced than the bolt-action rifles they held at the time. You don't give a semi-illiterate Afghani a Stinger missile and expect him to just pick it up & use it, so training WAS provided to "The Plucky Afghan Freedom Fighters".

Meanwhile, a Fatwa was declared against the Godless Communists in Afghanistan and the call went out to all good (& murderous) Muslims to join the fight. Off went Osama to Afghanistan, & YES, there is western newsreel footage of Osama the freedom fighter in a Mujahedeen camp. At 6'3" he did kind of stand out.

We're back at the old adage of supporting "the enemies of our enemies". It has aleays been the foundation of western geopolitics.

But, as I've said a few times before... The Enemy of Your Enemy is NOT neccessarily your friend!!!

It seems that the actions we take in our best interests 10 or 20 years ago always come back to bite us in the ass. This has been the underlying theme of our international involvement ever since Jewish & Arab nationalism was encouraged in 1916 to give us alies against the Ottoman Empire & German imperialism. Yep, 9/11 is all lloyd-George & Woodrow Wilson's fault.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.