angela.icarus 0 #1 September 1, 2011 *Attention NEOS pilots, we have made a modification to correct the occasional hard openings that have been reported. This applies to all NEOS canopies with s/n prior to 24112612. Please contact your dealer for a modification kit.* Blue Skies, Angela Tara HsuICARUS Canopies - USA P.O. Box 429 Pinebluff, NC 28373 Office: 877-216-6958 Fax: 877-325-1876 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #2 September 1, 2011 Hi Angela, Does this also apply for European canopies ? Do we need to contact our "closest dealer" (which would be more convenient for me) or the dealer which sold the canopy ? Is this modification kit free or do we have to pay for it ? Does it need some "rigger installation" or can it be "user installed" ? Many thanksscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angela.icarus 0 #3 September 1, 2011 This applies to all NEOS canopies with s/n prior to 24112612 worldwide. Ideally it would be the dealer you purchased the canopy from just because you already have a working relationship with them and they are familiar with you and your canopy. However, any authorized Icarus dealer will do. There is no charge for the modification kit and the work does need to be performed by a FAA Certified Master/Senior Parachute Rigger, foreign equivalent, or ICARUS Canopies.ICARUS Canopies - USA P.O. Box 429 Pinebluff, NC 28373 Office: 877-216-6958 Fax: 877-325-1876 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #4 September 1, 2011 thanks for the reply. Can you give us a quick hint on what the modification would be ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angela.icarus 0 #5 September 1, 2011 The length of the C1 lines have been changed. You will receive the lines you need in your kit.ICARUS Canopies - USA P.O. Box 429 Pinebluff, NC 28373 Office: 877-216-6958 Fax: 877-325-1876 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #6 September 1, 2011 I don't jump an Icarus canopy, but I wanted to applaud you for your customer service in this matter. Well done, Icarus. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #7 September 2, 2011 QuoteI don't jump an Icarus canopy, but I wanted to applaud you for your customer service in this matter. Well done, Icarus. Yeah, impressive, only 3 years to react, amazing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
angela.icarus 0 #8 September 2, 2011 Thank you DaVinciflies! We are doing our best to correct the problem while minimizing the inconvenience to jumpers. We felt this would be the most efficient way to make the changes. But feedback is always welcome, good and bad, to keep us on the right track. Have a wonderful holiday weekend! Happy jumping everyone! Blue skies, Angela ICARUS Canopies - USA P.O. Box 429 Pinebluff, NC 28373 Office: 877-216-6958 Fax: 877-325-1876 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #9 September 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteI don't jump an Icarus canopy, but I wanted to applaud you for your customer service in this matter. Well done, Icarus. Yeah, impressive, only 3 years to react, amazing.... Well, you could choose to look at it that way. I would rather take the view that they have done something, rather than just ignore the problem or deny that it exists. Additionally, Icarus have made the modification available free of charge, which they did not have to do. Secondly, from my limited understanding of these things, changing the opening characteristics of a canopy and thoroughly testing the results is not an overnight process. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jpriestley 0 #10 September 2, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteI don't jump an Icarus canopy, but I wanted to applaud you for your customer service in this matter. Well done, Icarus. Yeah, impressive, only 3 years to react, amazing.... Well, you could choose to look at it that way. I would rather take the view that they have done something, rather than just ignore the problem or deny that it exists. Additionally, Icarus have made the modification available free of charge, which they did not have to do. Secondly, from my limited understanding of these things, changing the opening characteristics of a canopy and thoroughly testing the results is not an overnight process. True That! Rather than throwing rocks at Icarus, I wish we could spend more time recognizing the complexities of their industry. This takes a lot of research and testing as well as enough input from their customers to determine an issue may actually exist before any of this work begins. For the company to provide a free fix and post it in locations where its obvious they're really trying to reach their customers is admirable. I am not an Icarus customer today but seeing things like this makes me want to be one. I'll seriously look at your products at my next canopy decision. Good work and thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
P-dro 0 #11 September 2, 2011 Quote I would rather take the view that they have done something, rather than just ignore the problem or deny that it exists. Oh really? what kind of answers have received people complaining during these years exactly ? QuoteAdditionally, Icarus have made the modification available free of charge, which they did not have to do. Don't you think that a canopy that opens decently without hurting it's owner is a bare minimum ? QuoteSecondly, from my limited understanding of these things, changing the opening characteristics of a canopy and thoroughly testing the results is not an overnight process. Testing is best done BEFORE releasing the canpy. And come on, within 3 or 4 year, you can design a whole new canopy..... Don't think I have anything against Icarus (hey I am waiting for the delivery of my JFX today or tomorrow) but I do think that Icarus handling of these issue is not that great in my opinion (it's one of the reasons I chose a JFX over a Neos to be perfectly clear) It good a fix is realeased, but it's very late in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #12 September 2, 2011 Quote There is no charge for the modification kit and the work does need to be performed by a FAA Certified Master/Senior Parachute Rigger, foreign equivalent, or ICARUS Canopies. Angela, The current FAA requlations still limits a Master rigger or someone under his/her supervision to do modifications and major repair work. Listing a Senior rigger would be incorrect JFYI. Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #13 September 3, 2011 dear Mel, wouldn't that be for certificated parachutes (reserve canopies) ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #14 September 3, 2011 Quote dear Mel, wouldn't that be for certificated parachutes (reserve canopies) ? Mr. Fish, Negative. It includes both mains and reserves. The new AC 105 2D (which is not regulatory BTW) has/had language that conflicts with regulation. This is just one of the areas that has conflict with the regulations or law. It already has been removed in the new re-write of AC-105-2D. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #15 September 5, 2011 But if the MFGR has specified that the repair could be done by a senior rigger, wouldn't that meet the criteria since they (being the designer and most intimate with the construction of their canopies) said that is the certificate required to do the work?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #16 September 5, 2011 Quote But if the MFGR has specified that the repair could be done by a senior rigger, wouldn't that meet the criteria since they (being the designer and most intimate with the construction of their canopies) said that is the certificate required to do the work? This is yet another area that has some confusion and is completely mis-leading to the unsuspecting rigger. The FAA certifies repairmen to a standard of which these repairmen are bound by regulation. A manufacturer cannot simply "upgrade" that rigger's proven standard to a higher standard of the rating that he or she does not hold. ....that's the FAA's responsibility! Pretty funny that AFS-350 is stating that the AC-105-2D was found to have never completely gone though Legal before publication...I wonder how that happened? Cheers, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #17 September 5, 2011 QuoteA manufacturer cannot simply "upgrade" that rigger's proven standard to a higher standard of the rating that he or she does not hold. FAA-S-8081-25A: QuoteOriginal Issuance of a Senior Certificate The examiner shall select at least one TASK from each AREA OF OPERATION, except AREA OF OPERATION VII. A senior applicant is not tested in AREA OF OPERATION VII Parachute Alteration. VI. AREA OF OPERATION: PARACHUTE REPAIR VI(K). TASK: SUSPENSION LINE REPLACEMENT IN RAM-AIR CANOPY(bolding mine) How is it a higher standard than proven if it's a testable task in the PTS? Furthermore, line replacements are NOT listed in section VII which is only for master rigger applicants."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #18 September 5, 2011 Quote A manufacturer cannot simply "upgrade" that rigger's proven standard to a higher standard of the rating that he or she does not hold. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAA-S-8081-25A: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Original Issuance of a Senior Certificate The examiner shall select at least one TASK from each AREA OF OPERATION, except AREA OF OPERATION VII. A senior applicant is not tested in AREA OF OPERATION VII Parachute Alteration. VI. AREA OF OPERATION: PARACHUTE REPAIR VI(K). TASK: SUSPENSION LINE REPLACEMENT IN RAM-AIR CANOPY -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (bolding mine) How is it a higher standard than proven if it's a testable task in the PTS? Furthermore, line replacements are NOT listed in section VII which is only for master rigger applicants. That is because we as DPREs select the applicable task in each AOO for the rating sought. If you will note, each AOO has tasks for Senior and also Master riggers. We get to select the right one for the rating sought. JFYI, AC-105-2D has been removed because of the errors and etc. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #19 September 5, 2011 Also, the Technical order for the modification shows that you don't even have to cut a line, nor sew one. Still stand by that a senior rigger cannot follow those instructions, and replace the line?"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #20 September 5, 2011 Quote Still stand by that a senior rigger cannot follow those instructions, and replace the line? Here in the USA...Yes. Replacing a suspension line incorrectly can affect airworthiness. The definition of a major repair is a repair that if done incorrectly can affect airworthiness. Only masterriggers can do major repairs. Pretty simple in my book. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,451 #21 September 5, 2011 Hi Mark, Quote Replacing a suspension line incorrectly can affect airworthiness. You & I have disagreed in the past & will again in the future. In your opinion, what is the definition of 'airworthiness' of a non-certificated part/component? JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #22 September 5, 2011 Quote You & I have disagreed in the past & will again in the future. In your opinion, what is the definition of 'airworthiness' of a non-certificated part/component? It would be the same as a certificated componet... ....The state of flying in a safe, as designed and maintained configuration... MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 8 #23 September 5, 2011 QuoteQuote You & I have disagreed in the past & will again in the future. In your opinion, what is the definition of 'airworthiness' of a non-certificated part/component? It would be the same as a certificated componet... ....The state of flying in a safe, as designed and maintained configuration... MEL Mark, You make it sound like senior riggers cannot do anything but assemble, inspect and pack systems. A 5"x5" patch on a main (not including a seam) could effect the 'airworthiness' of it, but I can still do that, can't I? I can't do it on a reserve, even if it is the EXACT same patch."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #24 September 6, 2011 IIRC you can do a simple patch on a reserve, but I could be wrong. IMO MEL is promoting Master Rigging by pushing the Senior Riggers who have the desire to do more than assemble, inspect and pack. By the way, an error on an assembly or a bad packing can also affect the airworthiness of a system. Senior riggers shouldn't be authorized to do that. The only work we should be authorized to do is fill-in the paperwork. Under supervision.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #25 September 6, 2011 Quote You make it sound like senior riggers cannot do anything but assemble, inspect and pack systems. Pretty much! They also can replace snaps, replace grommets, replace velcro, and install small patches that do not incorporate a seam. Quote A 5"x5" patch on a main (not including a seam) could effect the 'airworthiness' of it, but I can still do that, can't I? I can't do it on a reserve, even if it is the EXACT same patch. A minor repair is a minor repair regardless of if it is a certified canopy or not. BS, MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
