Judging others...

[vonSanta 0]

It's often seen as a bad thing to judge others. Why, I wonder? Is it the Judeo-Christian influence 'let he who is without sin...' or an idea to keep us from getting too uppity?

We have to judge, every day. We have to discriminate. Bananas instead of oranges, brunettes rather than blondes. It also applies to groups, individuals and actions.

If lack of perfection means no right to judge then nothing could ever be done. We discriminate and judge because we must. We're a social species and to get along and establish a hierarchy in a subgroup we must judge - or be trampled by those who do.

The key is to to it with honesty and integrity Am a very unserious person 99% of the time and for me most things are curiosities or obstacles to overcome - they're there, I deal with things when they pop up. It's seldom I resort to voicing a conclusion (or judgement, if you will) but by Nirfur, God Of All Things Yellow And Furry, am I tired of hearing 'let he who...' when I do. The point is not tob e without sin.

Or the other one, 'judge not lest you're prepared to be judged yourself'. Well, welcome to the real world. I *am* being judged. Constantly. Am perfectly OK with it, as the opinions of most don't influence me much. It's nice to be able to say 'bugger off', or just bugger off oneself when needed.

All this ranting stems from a scuba diving day. A dude pops up with a poorly maintained dry suit - I tellum he might have problems with it, which he (and others) shrugs off. 'Yer gonna have a stuck valve, diving that thing would be stupid'.

Of course he has and he rockets up like a Polaris missile. I comment 'that was a very stupid thing to do, he's gonna get himself dead if he keeps on being dumb' to the divers there (and the dude involved) and *immediately* I get the 'let he who is...' and 'live and let live' and what have you.

F@rk it. I'm gonna judge, and I expect to be judged, no matter what the PC police says. People are free to disregard me and my judgements and I have similar privileges.

Thoughts? Or rather, let me hear your judgements.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[EricaH 0]

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The key is to to it with honesty and integrity

Which few people that voice their judgements use.

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People are free to disregard me and my judgements and I have similar privileges

It's when they put their judgement on you that it is offensive.

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It's seldom I resort to voicing a conclusion (or judgement, if you will)

seldom voice is the key here.

There's a difference between judging & giving advice learned. Advice puts you on the same playing field, saying you've been through something one way or another & this is what you've learned. Now the person has theright to disregard that advice or try it out.
Judgment comes not necessairly from experience but from a sense of self rightnousness. You know that the person in question is in the wrong - not just doing something they are unaware of - and you being the superior being are there to point it out to them. You are giving a ruling on their life or actions.

Much more can be learned from an advisor than from a judge.
They call lawyers advisors because they take your circumstances & word it to the judge in a manner they think will most benefit you, the client; before the judge passes a ruling. You learn from your lawyer, you pay per the judge.

There is no can't. Only lack of knowledge or fear. Only you can fix your fear.

PMS #227 (just like the TV show)

[Push 0]

If by judging you mean judging a (wo)mans character by their actions, nothing wrong with it. Or if you mean judging an action as wrong for a reason that you can articulate, sure, go ahead.

If by judging you mean inferring, all too often incorrectly, qualities that you hate for no reason that you can adequately explain, and then punishing that person by hitting below the belt, please go elsewhere.

To illustrate, "that canopy is too small for you" is good judging, "you're a crazy suicidal maniac that needs help" is bad judging.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[vonSanta 0]

While I agree on what has been said, I'll be the devil's advocate and argue that you can only pass advice after you come to a judgement :). The possible presentation of a conclusion is one thing; arriving at it another.

I guess it much depend on what you mean with judgement - it has clear negative connotations in the English language. And it shouldn't have.

For example, let's look at how it is defined.

3: the cognitive process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions [syn: judgment, judging].

4: ability to make good judgments [syn: sagacity, sagaciousness, judgment, discernment]

5: the capacity to assess situations or circumstances shrewdly and to draw sound conclusions [syn: judgment, soundjudgment, sound judgement, perspicacity]

7: the act of judging or assessing a person or situation or event; "they criticized my judgment of the contestants" [syn: judgment, assessment]

There's nothing inherently bad about judging it seems. If one thinks a thing through and reach a conclusion that while not popular or polite is easy to illustrate and support, I see little reason for shame.

One can choose whether to voice it or not. My choice the vast majority of times is to defer that to later. Mebbe the dude will buy me a beer and prove to be alright after all
On matters of safety I expect others to chew on my arse and I'll speak my mind - advice mode first. If someone consistently ignores sound advice despite experiencing some serious and predicted results, I'll call that persons actions stupid. There's little else I can conclude from it and that person is setting a bad example for others, especially less experienced people.

As you say, I *am* giving a ruling on their actions. I'm just struggling a bit with why I should not, aside from the traditional Judeo-Christian values in my subgroup.

I'd agree that it's one thing to make judgements on qualitative things such as beauty, morals or way of life. I'd argue however that some things are more quantifiable and empirical in nature - safety in various outdoor sports being an example. I gather what I am looking for (being utterly unable to 'see' unwritten rules because I am "poorly socially schooled ) is general guidelines for when it's ok and not.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[pds 0]

i think your full of shit.

dont ask, i wont tell. lolololo

namaste, motherfucker.

[Tonto 1]

I judge that the 100 jump wonder jumping a canopy loaded to the gills is going to be moaning when we ask him if he can move his toes after a landing that pushed dirt up his nose.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[slotperfect 7]

Being judgemental does not serve me. Rather I use words like "choose" and "experience." For example:

I "choose" bananas over oranges, and I may have my reasons for it, backed by a belief system that I have become clear serves me well. If I choose bananas, I take ownership of the decision. Even if all there is to eat anywhere around me are bananas, I still have a choice whether or not to eat them. Of course, the power of choice can be a very dangerous thing, so I know to be careful in discerning which choice I will make.

With regard to others, I use the word "experience." I experience him as being angry. I experience her as being friendly. It's all about how the person shows up for me. The key is to love the person anyway, regardless of how they show up for me. Let's say someone cusses me out every time they are around me, but never sit down to talk things out. I might say "I experience this person as angry and confused," because that's how they show up for me. I also might "choose" not to be around that person because being together is not forwarding for either of us. That doesn't mean I don't love the person on a human level.

This perspective works for me, keeping me free from hate and allows me to interact successfully with many people. More specifically, it serves me very well here in these forums. If I share my opinion from "experience," I just bring up what works for me, and if it works for someone, great! This is the alternative to beating someone over the head with my opinion (my way is the only way).

See what I mean? Great post, BTW

Arrive Safely

John

[Amazon 7]

Wow... thank you.. great post SLotPerfect.

I think my major issue with judgemental people is so many of them judge not on personal experience or rational experience. The herd mentality of some people in this country saddens me. Polls sadden me because it shows the "herd" how they are supposed to be thinking.

AS far as interjecting god into the mix... god gave all people choice to live a life the way that is good to others, and how to live in a world with others...I choose to associate with some people.... others I choose not to. Far too much judgement leads to hypocrisy.. bigotry and far too many "isms" for my taste. Hence I leave the judgement to god.... and live my life in such a way as not to jeapardize my "soul" while on this all too human level. Those who do NOT follow a path that allows ALL people to take that path.. do so at thier own peril in the long run.

Amazon

[slotperfect 7]

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Far too much judgement leads to hypocrisy.. bigotry and far too many "isms" for my taste.

To me this speaks of labels. The Political Correctness movement got really carried away on this. It serves me best when I choose my labels carefully. They have their constructive uses, but can turn detrimental very quickly. Sometimes they are not even necessary. Here's an example:

I picked my kids up from day care a few years ago, my son Logan being 8 or so and my daughter Meredith being about 5. There was a kid in Logan's room I had not seen before, so I began to ask him about the young man. I asked him who the new kid was. He didn't get it. I asked him who the kid was using the computer by the door. He didn't get it. I asked him who the kid was in the red shirt using the computer by the door. He didn't get it. Finally, I asked him who the black kid was using the computer next to the door. He told me "Oh, that's Chris . . . and he's African American, not black. I said "OK, let's talk about that." I asked Logan for his opinion on why black is a bad label and African American a good one. He had no good answer. I asked "what's something else we could call people who are of that race?" From the back seat came Meredith's perfect wisdom: "We could ask them their name!"

Sometimes my kids are the best teachers. I benefit in many ways by trying to have their perspective on the world.

Arrive Safely

John

[vonSanta 0]

Great post slotperfect, but aren't we really dealing with handling it as a semantics issue? If so, I'm in.
A choice between something can be viewed either preferring something instead of an alternative. The better one or the least bad one. Seems like that's what we have here :).

One can argue that in picking the banana, you discriminate against the orange. I see no harm in this; one is preferred compared to the other. We do this every day. Unfortunately, 'discriminate' is now a dirty word. I sort of like languages and am not to keen on letting the InstantCulture of the moment deem what is appropriate use - even so I recognize the fluent evolving nature of languages and the influences of culture.

Experiencing someone as being angry is a judgement call of sorts. One taken perhaps with only partial information - lack of knowledge of that person makes thecall hard. If you *knew* action A would lead to consequence B, told someone about it and then had it play out, would you say you experienced it as a stupid thing to do - or would you use more powerful and decisive language?

'Experience' is good for ambiguous situations methinks. For clearcut ones, clearer language can be used with effect.

It's really a non issue though. I agree with your approach and do what I can to be as friendly as I can. There just are some situations where behaviour is so outrageous that I find being hindered by 'proper behaviour and respect for your fellow man' is not warranted. I can respect a man, find him intelligent yet judge his course of action to be incredibly stupid.

The key, I think, is to separate the action from the man/woman. To show that it's not an attack on the person but a judgement of the action taken. But dammit - sometimes I bloody want to call a spade a spade. Perhaps it's a reaction to being a non confrontational person. Ya keep it contained for a time, but sooner or later, it gotta come out.

Of course this raises some elementary philosophical questions such as 'What makes up a human being' - is she what she thinks, the sum of her actions etc? But that's another discussion

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[Amazon 7]

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One can argue that in picking the banana, you discriminate against the orange.

I ALWAYS discriminate AGAINST the damn banana. They are evil and make me sick.. my experience from growing up with a grandfather who had like 15 varieties of banana plant... oh.. and those were on the west side of his Orange Grove in FLorida. I ate too many banana's... and cant even stand the smell of them now let alone ever eat one... yet I also ate MANY oranges..... and never got sick of them.

Amazon