Marking of reserve lines

[PhreeZone 20]

I had a question sent to me by a new rigger that asked that it be posted here. I provided my thoughts but figured I'd let all riggers weigh in to see if my opinion matches everyone else's.

I opened a rig that was given to me for a repack and I see that at some point a previous rigger had gone though and colored the top few inches of the C and D lines on the canopy with some sort of red marker. The canopy is white and it looks like the red has bled into the canopy at multiple points now. Do you think the canopy is ok to repack? There are no notes on when this work was done so I don't know if it was the last rigger or it had been done years ago and its just been repacked by others since then.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[piisfish 140]

is there a possibility that the colouring was done diretly at the factory ?

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

That's odd. I get that if you mark the lines you can better see them through the fabric, and make sure they're not working their way around the sides of the pack job, but if that's the case. why mark the C lines and not mark the steering lines? The C lines generally stay put, and the steering lines are more likely to sneak around the side.

Beyond that, if that was the reason for marking them, you have to wonder if the guy marks lines on all the reserves he packs, or if this was an islolated incident? If it was, why mark only this one?

In terms of the canopy itself, I vote for contacting the manufacturer. They might reccomend a fabric test and they might ask what type of marker was used. If I was the rigs owner, I'd start calling all the riggers who packed the rig and get to the bottom of this. It might turn into a big problem if the factory says 'no go'.

[PhreeZone 20]

This factory does not color their lines, I know that for a fact since I've packed probably 85-100 of the same type canopy now.

Also a bit more detail that I was told was it looks like the C's are red but the D's are a different color.


I know that some canopy makers are doing the attachment tabs in different colors to make it easier to pack but had never heard of anyone coloring lines to do that.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mark 107]

Most red dyes are not colorfast; bleeding is normal even with certified materials.

The most likely marker used was a Sharpie, and most Sharpie colors are acid-free. The canopy is likely to be safe to jump.

"Likely to be safe" is not good enough. I'd recommend calling the manufacturer and asking if a litmus paper test would be acceptable. If there's any doubt, the canopy must be returned to the manufacturer for evaluation.

Some education for the previous rigger would be a good idea, too.

Mark

[pchapman 279]

Has the owner known all along?

Some riggers might just have gone along with it -- on the basis of not being able to prove that the reserve should be grounded -- even if it is totally non standard, not in any normally accepted configuration. And they would have thought that if the owner is OK with that, fine. Reserves get water stained, or round reserves got dirty all the time on the gore that rubbed against the backpad.

I'm not condoning using markers on reserves at all; just looking at explanations for why it kept getting packed. Bizarre: who would every think of marking a reserve like that?

[councilman24 37]

What mark said. He says it so well.
BTW we talk about "litmus tests" but there are much better indicator strips available and things like the water used, etc can affect the results. And acid isn't the only thing that can degrade nylon, dacron, spectra or whatever. I'd let the manufacturer make the call and then the individual rigger can still decide if they want to pack it.

I had someone years ago who was having their customers write their contact information etc in big red letters on the freebag bridle. I'm talking several feet of writing. "Ink" all over the place. I declined to pack them and most customers replaced them.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 102]

Is there a type of marker that is acknowledged by the industry as OK to use?

PD reserves have to be marked on the warning label, is it because it is on the label and not the fabric that we don't need to be concerned about what is doing the marking? Seems like it could bleed through the label.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

What mark said. He says it so well.
BTW we talk about "litmus tests" but there are much better indicator strips available and things like the water used, etc can affect the results. And acid isn't the only thing that can degrade nylon, dacron, spectra or whatever. I'd let the manufacturer make the call and then the individual rigger can still decide if they want to pack it.

I had someone years ago who was having their customers write their contact information etc in big red letters on the freebag bridle. I'm talking several feet of writing. "Ink" all over the place. I declined to pack them and most customers replaced them.

....................................................................

May I publicly disagree with you?

... on a pragmatic level?

Sorry, but I am not a chemist.

Skydivers have been writing contact information on free- bag bridles since they were made out of cotton (versus the modern polyester).

How many broken free-bag bridles have we heard of?

Hint: the number approaches zero.

[riggerrob 643]

"

Quote

... PD reserves have to be marked on the warning label, is it because it is on the label and not the fabric that we don't need to be concerned about what is doing the marking? Seems like it could bleed through the label.

"

........................................................................

Yes, ink might bleed through.
Start by remembering that new F-111 fabric is almost water-proof.
Secondly (excuse the pun) the center tail has a double layer of fabric: top skin, plus label.

Also remember that the center, tail, top skin is a low risk area. It is one of the last parts of a canopy to pressurize.

I have seen numerous main canopies - with dozens of tiny holes (in the center, tail, top skin) - survive hundreds of high speed deployments. They usually do not get patched until they return to the factory - for re-lining - after 600 or more jumps.

[councilman24 37]

But is additional degradation, even if it hasn't ever caused a failure, acceptable?

Especially when alternatives is acceptable. I can't know how much degradation has happened unless I test to destruction. And this was 2" letters covering several feet, which had bled all over.

We almost never have had a harness failure, but we ground harness for wear and tear and sun degradation.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,464]

Hi Terry,

Quote

But is additional degradation . . . acceptable?

Of course not; but the question is whether it is degraded or not. And that is what we do not know.

TSO standards rrequire that the component be 'marked.' There is nothing in the standard about what to use to mark it. Since all of the testing is done ( in this case let's stick with the canopy ) prior to the TSO-authorization being issued, it is fair to believe that the canopy was not tested as marked during later production.

If you ever apply for & receive an FAA-approved alteration, you will be required to mark the component. But I have never known of an alteration where the marking materials were listed. Anyone?

Riggers not knowing what was used to mark components have been around long before I became a rigger.

A couple of photos to get some more discussion going,

JerryBaumchen

PS) And, NO I am not advocating willy-knilly marking of any approved component. The older that I get, the more cautious that I become.

[RIGGER 0]

The data & no. stamps on the round reserve gore & others which are stamped on the fabric should be Parachute Approved Ink which is covered under Mil - I - 6903 FSN 7510-634-6583 came in Blue, Orange/Yellow or Canopy Mfg. Approved Ink.

Regarding the PIA TS-108 & TS-108.1"Fabric Pull Test" it should be marked with Parachute Ink or BLACK Sharpie but according to PD: PD reserves should NOT be marked in any way for the fabric pull test - the test must be recorded on the Data Card & in the Rigger log book. I checked that with PD years ago & was told do not mark the fabric.

Thre is no need for the 4 dots at each clamping point & no need for the info. on the fabric - it is an old story which gone away - do the Mfg. pull test by his manual & record it on the data card & Rigger log book - PD is the only canopy mfg. asking for a 1 year cycle 30 lb. fabric pull test on the PR's & OP's.

When going back to the Acid Mesh / F-111 issues the marking was done with a ready stamp using Parachute Ink.

Cheers

[JerryBaumchen 1,464]

Hi Shlomo,

Quote

stamped on the fabric should be Parachute Approved Ink which is covered under Mil - I - 6903 FSN 7510-634-6583

The ONLY entity who determines what to mark a new component with is the manufacturer and no one else.

I have never seen your Mil Std product referenced in any TSO standard. Actually, I've never seen any Mil Std product referenced in any TSO standard.

The only req'ment is that it be permanently marked.

The mfr gets to choose what he/she feels is permanent. On occasion the FAA does muddle around in that stuff but they have not a clue as to what they do not know. This one I know from experience.

Just my thoughts . . . ,

JerryBaumchen

PS) I am a subcriber to the belief that we should not read things into standards that are not there. It's tough enough as it is.

PPS) While I will never claim to know everything, the last info I had was that Mil Stds were going away.