No WMD report

[wildblue 7]

Just trying to draw some parallels here. Looking from the outside, someone could easily call America evil, say that we as a people never had our country, and are ruled by an oppressive regime.

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This is not the same thing as the GOVERNMENT indiscriminately killing people at will

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government killing it's citizens

Are we talking about the Iraqi government "indiscriminately killing people"? When? Where?

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I've gotta say that if we invade a terrorist training camp in Afghanistan and start shooting and happen to kill the one guy there that isn't a terrorist

There have been deaths at Guantanamo Bay just from 'questionings'

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[juanesky 0]

Hey Keith, Anvil,

I agree with you on most of the things, the issue at hand is that these people resort on cutting and pasting news, and simply not being direct and honest, about their intention or resoning of their actions, just cowardly rasing a debate they are not willing to finish.

As for you Keith, I'm there 100% with you, most can argue and bitch all they can, but those who have actually put their buts on the line know what you are talking about here. If it wasn't for these people things would be a lot worse.

They definitely need to get off their butts, and go themselves to those places they are so willing to protect verbally, and get the actual facts.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Hummusx 0]

For more than 20 years, Saddam Hussein has executed perceived opponents without respect for rule of law. Saddam Hussein silences these alleged dissidents because he believes that their political beliefs, faith, ethnic background, family members, or acquaintances are a threat to his power. Some are first taken as political prisoners before being executed. In February 1998, 400 prisoners at Abu Gharaib prison were executed summarily. Two months later, 100 detainees from Radwaniyah Prison were buried alive in a pit in Ramadi province. These killings were supposed to "clean out" the prisons. More than 3,000 people have been killed in a similar manner since 1997.

Summary executions in Iraq take many cruel forms. A quick yet effective method is to line up the entire male population of a village and shoot them systematically, one at a time, in order to eliminate the village. Saddam Hussein's regime, however, often prefers methods that take more time and inflict more pain on the victim and the victim's family. His regime has poisoned political prisoners by giving them a slow-acting poison, thallium, which slowly infiltrates the system and takes several days to bring death. Iraqi citizens are often decapitated in front of family members, and at other times, they are shot in front of family members and the family is charged for the cost of the bullet. Saddam Hussein has perfected many of these methods of murder on Kurds in northern Iraq and religious leaders from the Shi'a community, claiming that they are disloyal to the government. Once murdered, many Iraqis are buried in unmarked graves so that their family members cannot visit them.


"It has been the Iraqi regime's policy to change the demography of Iraq, by eradicating the Kurdish population from areas that are deemed important in the north of the country. The regime has done this through forced deportation, arbitrary arrests, and systematic torture."

— Paiman Halmat, teacher, former Iraqi citizen

As a particularly brutal example of silencing political opposition, it is estimated that at least 30,000 to 60,000 members of the Shi'a community were killed during their post-Gulf War political insurrection in southern Iraq.


More info at:
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/silenced/murder.htm

____________________________________
It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[juanesky 0]

No, you know this can not be true. He was a good man, willing to become the leader in his world.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[jfields 0]

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As for you Keith, I'm there 100% with you, most can argue and bitch all they can, but those who have actually put their buts on the line know what you are talking about here. If it wasn't for these people things would be a lot worse.

So the soldiers that have served are all in agreement and the wussies that didn't are the ones questioning America's actions?

I hate to break the news to you, but that isn't so.

Soldiers, more than average citizens, know the cost and peril of what we are doing. They are the ones that have put their lives on the line by serving their country. Some of them back our actions, and some don't.

[juanesky 0]

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As for you Keith, I'm there 100% with you, most can argue and bitch all they can, but those who have actually put their buts on the line know what you are talking about here. If it wasn't for these people things would be a lot worse.

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So the soldiers that have served are all in agreement and the wussies that didn't are the ones questioning America's actions?

Yes. They follow orders. The Exo is the President.

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I hate to break the news to you, but that isn't so.

Really? go and disobey orders while being part of the armed forces, and you will know. This clearly states that you have no idea what you are talking about. People who have joined, do most for country, and not a political agenda. We love the freedom and the ideals that have made this nation what it is.

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Soldiers, more than average citizens, know the cost and peril of what we are doing. They are the ones that have put their lives on the line by serving their country. Some of them back our actions, and some don't.

I'm one, and that implies to support and defend the constitution of the US. Got news for you.....the military in this country are 100% volunteered into service. If you joined for the wrong reasons or just for a paycheck, you made a huge mistake.

You got nothing else but to obey orders and protect. And yes, at the current time, train for war and maybe get a couple of TH while you are at it.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[wmw999 2,584]

Who exactly have you heard defending Saddam Hussein as a person, or as a ruler.

But there are people who disagree with GWB, and even the most ardent of Clinton supporters would have objected if someone had invaded the US to put someone else in -- even if it were someone that the Clinton-haters liked.

And saying that since no one else has the power to invade us it's a moot point is cowardly. Because it says that power is what counts, and it's dangerous to depend on power to determine what's right.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jfields 0]

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I'm one, and that implies to support and defend the constitution of the US. Got news for you.....the military in this country are 100% volunteered into service.

I served too. After my honorable discharge, I'm a civilian again. I disagree with many of our actions, but support some others.

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but those who have actually put their buts on the line know what you are talking about here.

I did, and I can disagree with him. The "soldiers know what its like" line doesn't cut it, because there is no consensus among veterans. Military service does not make most people into slobbering but obedient dogs. We retain the ability to think, evaluate and come to our own conclusions, regardless of what our government tells us. We followed orders when we were in, but that doesn't equate to a lobotomy.

[Hummusx 0]

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But there are people who disagree with GWB, and even the most ardent of Clinton supporters would have objected if someone had invaded the US to put someone else in -- even if it were someone that the Clinton-haters liked.

It's not exactly a fair comparison. Our leaders are not dictators, do not have absolute power, and are elected to their positions. They are also guaranteed to be out within 8 years, if not sooner. Not quite the same situation in Iraq.

Besides that, many Iraqis are ecstatic at the idea of being out from under Saddam's regime. As you say, no one would be happy about GWB being removed by force (at least, not too happy), but we live in a different place entirely.

____________________________________
It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[TheAnvil 0]

Fair and balanced would be FoxNews more than I - I'm a hypocritical libertarian who tends to vote republican.

Opposing a radical website posted here with radicals whose position tends to be the same as those of the website in question? Unfair?

I think not.

Oh. I know you're not an anti-gunner.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[jfields 0]

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I'm a hypocritical libertarian who tends to vote republican.

Well, now that we've finally gotten that out of the way....

[TheAnvil 0]

Does this mean I'm confused?



Hoser. Come to the Byron boogie and bring Billvon so I can finally meet y'all.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[wmw999 2,584]

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It's not exactly a fair comparison. Our leaders are not dictators, do not have absolute power, and are elected to their positions. They are also guaranteed to be out within 8 years, if not sooner. Not quite the same situation in Iraq.

No, it's not the same. But NOTHING IS EVER EXACTLY THE SAME. A country's sovereignty to make its own, even bad decisions is extremely important. It's part of what makes you a country. Just like your sovereignty to make decisions about your family is sacred.

If you (this is the figurative you) were a father who decided to raise his boys to know that they were in all ways superior, and his girls to know that their job was to marry and be submissive, I might think you were a jerk. But I would be COMPLETELY wrong to move into your house by force, even if I were strong enough.

If you break the laws, then the authorities enforce them. But once you trust the neighborhood strongman to enforce what "everyone knows is right" you're giving up your ability to contribute to the strength.

I'm sure if GWB were removed by force, (or Clinton for that matter), I'm sure there would be people who would rejoice. Not as many as Iraqi's who are happy to have Saddam gone, no.

Their being wrong in some way does not make us right to end it. If that were the case, why didn't we go into Rwanda when they were busy massacring each other. That was far worse than what was happening in Iraq.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freeflydrew 0]

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A) You didn't answer my question.
B) I'm libertarian.
C) Honesty and integrity? Hmmm.....I watched the buffoons who want to replace the President debate. Not a lot of honesty or integrity there. Wes Clark we'll have to see what he does/says. As far as the president himself goes, I believe him an improvement over the last one as far as integrity and honesty goes despite the fact that his policies and spending aren't to my liking.

Answer my question please.

What's your question???

[wildblue 7]

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What's your question???

That's a square Alex!

it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality

[Hummusx 0]

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If you (this is the figurative you) were a father who decided to raise his boys to know that they were in all ways superior, and his girls to know that their job was to marry and be submissive, I might think you were a jerk. But I would be COMPLETELY wrong to move into your house by force, even if I were strong enough.

Actually, if I were beating my sons and killing my daughters, someone WOULD come in and stop me.

You're right about the sovereignty of a country to make it's own decisions, but when you say, "It's part of what makes you a country", who exactly do you mean? Certainly you don't mean the Iraqi people. Did Saddam and his cronies constitute the country of Iraq? There has to be a distinction between a country where the people have some hand in their government and a dictatorship.

____________________________________
It’s like selling a million grills all at the same time…with extended warranties. -Hank Hill

[jfields 0]

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"It's part of what makes you a country", who exactly do you mean? Certainly you don't mean the Iraqi people. Did Saddam and his cronies constitute the country of Iraq? There has to be a distinction between a country where the people have some hand in their government and a dictatorship.

In either case, it is not our country. And why do we care when it is one dictator and cronies versus another dictator? Why single on out for special treatment. How long has Castro been in charge of Cuba? What about the treatment of the North Koreans? Somali's? South Africans before the end of apartheid? Why did we not care then? I won't say it is all oil, but something is fishy about it.

We have no right to arbitrarily and unilaterally decide the fate of another country. How would you feel if other people decided to do just that to us?

[ranchhand28 0]

There has to be a distinction between a country where the people have some hand in their government and a dictatorship.

[ranchhand28 0]

moreover, a country is a country regardless of the regime in power.

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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Ahhhhh... hence the phrase "Good will always prevail"

Hence the phrase "Hollywood Ending." Real life ain't a Disney movie.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[storm1977 0]

Bill,

You still haven't addressed the fact that your Boy Billy Clinton Knew there were WMD in Iraq... I want to know what you think....

Come on Bill ....
Let's here it.

THAT'S RIGHT CLINTON ORDERED A PRE-EMTIVE STRIKE ON IRAQ TO DESTROY WMD. I WANT TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT IT...

Chris

-----------------------------------------------------
Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[juanesky 0]

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It's not exactly a fair comparison. Our leaders are not dictators, do not have absolute power, and are elected to their positions. They are also guaranteed to be out within 8 years, if not sooner. Not quite the same situation in Iraq.

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No, it's not the same. But NOTHING IS EVER EXACTLY THE SAME. A country's sovereignty to make its own, even bad decisions is extremely important. It's part of what makes you a country. Just like your sovereignty to make decisions about your family is sacred.

Agreed. But when you are a threat to society and been caught, and given plenty of chances and parole, you go back to jail

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If you (this is the figurative you) were a father who decided to raise his boys to know that they were in all ways superior, and his girls to know that their job was to marry and be submissive, I might think you were a jerk. But I would be COMPLETELY wrong to move into your house by force, even if I were strong enough.

Never heard of domestic abuse? or warranted warnings in this case?

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If you break the laws, then the authorities enforce them. But once you trust the neighborhood strongman to enforce what "everyone knows is right" you're giving up your ability to contribute to the strength.

Remember Hitler by any chance? I would like to hear if Hitler was alive today, what people thought of the situation, contain him or just kill him?

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I'm sure if GWB were removed by force, (or Clinton for that matter), I'm sure there would be people who would rejoice. Not as many as Iraqi's who are happy to have Saddam gone, no.

Their being wrong in some way does not make us right to end it. If that were the case, why didn't we go into Rwanda when they were busy massacring each other. That was far worse than what was happening in Iraq.

Agreed on this, not all human actions are perfect. But on the other side, you fail to see that US has no legacy of eternal occupation. Can name few there....Germany, Japan, Panama, Kuwait....just give it some time. The results are being seen right now, look at Syria, Pakistan, Iran reactions these days, and let me know if they got a message, North Korea is being dealt with, as well as all those who are representing a threat, in one way or the other.

What is the alternative you propose?

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

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[PhillyKev 0]

Ahhh, you resisted for awhile but I knew it would happen. Please point out where BillVon brought up Clinton or said that he agreed more with Clinton than he does with Bush?

The old standby. If you don't like what Bush is doing, you must have supported everything Clinton did.

Fortunately some of us are able to form our own thoughts and opinions instead of just parroting what one president or another says and going along with them 100% on every issue.

[freeflydrew 0]

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Fortunately some of us are able to form our own thoughts and opinions instead of just parroting what one president or another says and going along with them 100% on every issue.

Well said...

100% on every issue... sounds like someone watching the news and not listening again!!!

[billvon 3,107]

>You still haven't addressed the fact that your Boy Billy Clinton Knew
>there were WMD in Iraq... I want to know what you think....

He knew. So did Reagan. Reagan SUPPORTED Hussein while he was gassing the Iranians, because we didn't like the Iranians. Heck, we sold them the ingredients to make the gas, and the helicopters he later used to gas his own people. Here is a good summary of what happened, including a picture of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein a month after he used WMD's against the Kurds.

BTW Clinton is not my "boy." I don't think he was an especially good president.