Space exploration

[Guest]

"The big obstacle, however, is public opposition to putting a nuclear reactor in space". Geez, where have they been?

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[billvon 3,107]

>Geez, where have they been?

Still protesting. I remember several groups that protested the launch of the Cassini probe.

[Guest]

Yeah, I remember that. Assholes. Demanding that solar panels be used instead of RTG. NASA published a graphic, IIRC, showing that if solar panels were used, they'd have to be the size of football fields...

And they tried to stop the launch, etc. For pity's sake, some people really don't have anything better to do.

I grant you that U-238 is nasty stuff indeed, but it's the only thing that does the job, and pelletized fuel is acceptably safe, even if the launch vehicle re-entered and burned up (as happened with the RTG cask on the Apollo 13 Lunar Module, which was supposed to make a one-way trip).

Heck, the Voyager probes still both work (though the RTGs will run out of gas by about 2020 (due to breakdown of the thermal junctions, not the isotope).

Cassini is going to be FABULOUS (only 17 months to go!). It's going to make Galileo look like amateur hour.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[VivaHeadDown 0]

Billvon, you're a dreamer, man. That's great, vision and inspiration are a key to any step forward. But there is a real world out there that's going to oppose anything new. Our first mission will be the tried and true, it's just how life works. Unless you have some sugar mamma funding the other possibilities, and that kind of a wild card is the only way they'll happen.

Personally, whatever gets the job done. This planet is getting a little too crowded for my tastes. And being so far from earth isn't going to have any real impact on post-whoring, so let's get going!

[freefallfreak 0]

Well, I'm not too sure about space travel but I can say this...Nuclear power is highly over-rated. I live next to the Savannah River Site. We recieved notice in the mail last week that our ground water is now polluted with Radium 226 and 228...I don't think nuclear power is the way to go any more. SRS allows deer and hog hunting once or twice a year but will only allow you to take the animal from the SRS after they inspect it for radiation poisoning. I was all for nuclear power till I found out about the "accidents" at SRS that happen from time to time. Ground water pollution is just one of many "accidents" that have happened here and I'm not too comfortable with it now. Anyone need a roommate??

FFF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[relyon 0]

Quote

I grant you that U-238 is nasty stuff indeed, but it's the only thing that does the job, and pelletized fuel is acceptably safe, even if the launch vehicle re-entered and burned up (as happened with the RTG cask on the Apollo 13 Lunar Module, which was supposed to make a one-way trip).

Actually, U-238 isn't that bad because the reaction can be controlled. RTG's are nasty because they're hot all the time. They have to be shielded because there's no way to shut them off.

RTG's have historically been chosen for deep space missions because of their simplicity, in spite of their inefficiency, handling, and environmental concerns.

Bob

[billvon 3,107]

> I live next to the Savannah River Site.

Well, that's a site that makes nuclear weapons, so there's a _lot_ more going on there than generating nuclear power. A typical coal plant puts out tons of uranium a year right into the air; that's a lot worse than what even three mile island put out during its LOCA incident years back.

>I was all for nuclear power till I found out about the "accidents" at
> SRS that happen from time to time.

I'm still all for it, despite TMI and the Rancho Seco plant fiasco. It's not that nuclear power is perfect, it's that coal is much, much worse. People who live near nuclear plants live a lot longer than people who live near coal plants.

[relyon 0]

Quote

A typical coal plant puts out tons of uranium a year right into the air; that's a lot worse than what even three mile island put out during its LOCA incident years back.

True, but coal plant output is dispersed and the TMI discharge was not. Coal plants don't meltdown either.

Bob (I grew up in York, PA - 15 miles from TMI)

[billvon 3,107]

>True, but coal plant output is dispersed and the TMI discharge was
> not.

Well, yeah it was. The hydrogen isotopes released were lighter than air and rose very quickly. The heavy water steam acted - well, like steam, and likewise dispersed pretty quickly, using exactly the same processes as exhaust from a coal plant. No one has ever found any evidence that the people of nearby cities were exposed to high levels of radiation.

>Coal plants don't meltdown either.

Neither did TMI, at least in the way people feared it would. Although the operators did just about everything possible wrong, the feared event (a "puddle" of fuel that melts through the reactor vessel) did not occur. The core is a mess, but it remained contained in the reactor vessel.

TMI is an example of the worst possible accident in a BWR/PWR - two simultaneous equipment failures that led to a LOCA followed by three really dumb moves by operators. Total result - a damaged and unusable reactor; no deaths or injuries. If that's an example of a really bad accident, it beats all other forms of power by miles. (How many people were killed by gas line explosions last year?)

[relyon 0]

Quote

If that's an example of a really bad accident, it beats all other forms of power by miles. (How many people were killed by gas line explosions last year?)

TMI was a bad accident that could have been far worse; Chernobyl is an example of a really bad accident that may get even worse. How many coal plant or gas line fire sites are that dangerous that many years later?

Bob

[billvon 3,107]

>TMI was a bad accident that could have been far worse;

Before the accident, I heard anti-nuclear activists describe a LOCA as the end of the world; it would destroy the plant, the fuel would puddle and tunnel into the water table where it would explode, it would be unstoppable, it would kill thousands etc. Then there was a serious LOCA and none of that happened, so now the story is it could be worse, even though no one was injured.

Well, coal power plant particulate emissions kill around 10,000 people a year. Nuclear power kills none. If we did have a nuclear plant accident so bad that it killed even 1000 people, the media would make it out to be the end of the world as we know it - and nuclear power would STILL be 10 times safer than coal power.

The underlying reason for all this is that people are just plain afraid of nuclear power plants. Which is all well and good, but is a poor reason to just accept the deaths of 10,000 people a year.

>Chernobyl is an example of a really bad accident that may get even
> worse.

We don't have any RBMK reactors, so that sort of accident can't happen here. Sorta like saying that round silk reserves sometimes fail after being used for 60 years so skydiving is unsafe.

>How many coal plant or gas line fire sites are that dangerous that
> many years later?

The Centralia, PA coal fire started in 1961. It's still burning and the town is uninhabitable. That's 41 years, and there's no sign it will be put out anytime soon. There are signs it may destroy Ashland as well.

[freefallfreak 0]

Bill,

SRS doesn't make nuclear weapons any more *choke-cough*. (Lol) They claim that no more plutonium is being processed there - somehow, I doubt their word. After all, K reactor developed a crack years ago and was shut down, but what of the other 8 reactors? They claim that they don't store weapons there - but why do they have all those bunkers so deep in the earth? Now, to clarify something. Nope, they don't make the weapons - they make all the components - to be assembled elsewhere. The disclaimer is the nuc's aren't being assembled but if you manufacture a gun, it isn't a weapon without the bullets. If you manufacture ammo, it isn't a weapon without the gun. So, as long as they two components aren't assembled, it isn't a weapon (governments way of thinking). In reality, no one - and I mean NO ONE - knows just exactly what is being made there. Everything is compartmentalized. And I'm still looking for a roommate...lol.

FFF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[bobsled92 0]

I live here in PA.
The TMI event was not an accident but the act of a whistle blower(report from investigations of the BCI/ Office of Atty. Gen. of PA). Valves that were shut of for EXCATLY 10 seconds and then opened.
The place was run with little professionalism at the time. The event occurred excatly 7 days after "CHINA SYNDROME" was released in Theaters.
TMI is safe and every day I jump here, we fly over the place. It's in our take-off pattern/MAYTOWN.
Centralia/"Twilight Zone" is still burning and few homes are still there. As people move, the state takes the land and levels the houses one at a time.
It's strange to see these row homes now standing alone.(was 10 in a row, now 1 narrow dwelling).
"Welcome to Pennsylvania, We're saving money no matter how much it costs!"

_______________________________
If I could be a Super Hero,
I chose to be: "GRANT-A-CLAUS". and work 365 days a Year.
http://www.hangout.no/speednews/

[billvon 3,107]

>The TMI event was not an accident but the act of a whistle blower(report from
> investigations of the BCI/ Office of Atty. Gen. of PA). Valves that were
> shut of for EXCATLY 10 seconds and then opened.

Not sure what you mean there. Which valves? The block valves were closed for the duration of the problem (hours) which prevented emergency cooling water from reaching the primary heat exchangers; this exacerbated the problem. The PORV, the primary culprit, was open for at least an hour (i.e. it did not close when it was supposed to) and this allowed the LOCA to happen to begin with. It was indeed a serious accident.

[relyon 0]

Quote

Before the accident, I heard anti-nuclear activists describe a LOCA as the end of the world...

Hmmm. I honestly can't believe you're blowing off TMI and Chernobyl, comparing nuclear plant accidents to a coal mine fire, insisting coal power generation is deadly yet nuclear power has killed no one, and blaming people's fears and the media for it all. Whatever. Tell you what, I'll camp outside the Centralia mine entrance for as long as you're willing to chill next to the Chernobyl "Mausoleum".

Before you get the idea I'm some flaming anti-nuke, I'll assure you nothing is farther from the truth. I'm actually quite a nuclear power proponent, but given current technology, human nature, and world events being what they are, I think we're far from a safe and secure nuclear powered future. Frankly, I'd rather have this kind of stuff in my back yard before I'd move next to a nuke: http://www.ga.com/atg/sp/space.html

I'm cuttin' away from this entanglement

Bob

[billvon 3,107]

>I honestly can't believe you're blowing off TMI and Chernobyl . . .

I'm doing nothing of the sort. TMI was a serious problem; still, no one was injured. Chernobyl can't happen here; we don't have any reactors like that.

In any case, you seem to be able to 'blow off' 10,000 dead americans a year pretty easily. I find that harder to do than you do.

>insisting coal power generation is deadly yet nuclear power has killed
>no one. . .

Name a single person who has been killed near a US commercial nuclear reactor as a result of a containment failure or radiation exposure. Just one, and you'll have a point.

In any case, I will restart this thread under a new heading since it has little to do with space exploration.

[AggieDave 6]

There was a 3-eyed fish on the Simpsons due to a Nuke Plant, does that count?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[tonyhays 86]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/968049.asp?0dm=C19OT


It could happen sooner than you think. I wonder if such an engineering feat could be modified for DZ purposes.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[Gawain 0]

Clicky!!!

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[TheAnvil 0]

That was RTGs. Wait until Jeff Schreiber's team from NASA Glenn gets the Stirling Engine with a GPHB external heat source up on Mars! That's going to KICKASS!

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Deuce 1]

Bill, this is an area where I agree with you completely.

I believe that pure science pays tremendous economic dividends.

But who should pay for it?

[Guest]

Quote

That was RTGs. Wait until Jeff Schreiber's team from NASA Glenn gets the Stirling Engine with a GPHB external heat source up on Mars! That's going to KICKASS!

That's so freakin' kewl. I can't wait to see it in action...

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."