quade 4 #1 September 17, 2003 http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/09/17/sprj.irq.bush.ap/index.html I'm impressed that he's begun to take steps to clear this up in spite of what the New York Post columnist Dick Morris said today.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #2 September 17, 2003 Good for him! Good to see them clearing up a myth they had previously been encouraging. I think it's important that the people who vote in this country have an accurate idea of what's going on, both in our government and in the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #3 September 17, 2003 Hell, I was amazed that 70 percent of Americans think he had something to do with the attacks. I thought people knew all along that they didn't have shit on him with the 9/11 attacks. Krikey. I guess the American citizenry WILL buy anything. p.s. Why'd it take the administration so long to quash this. A little suspicious, in my mind. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #4 September 18, 2003 >p.s. Why'd it take the administration so long to quash this. A little >suspicious, in my mind. Why suspicious? They needed a popular war; a war against someone you can blame for 9/11 is about the most popular reason there is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #5 September 18, 2003 my god I thought he'd never actually say it out loud... He could have addressed this before we bombed Iraq, and maybe more people would have spoke out against the the administration's justification to attack? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #6 September 18, 2003 Smart politics. Why do you think 70% of Americans think Iraq was involved in 9/11? It is because GWB and his friends in the media wanted people to believe it by "spinning" the story. We are now in a situation where it is inrefutable clear that the claim is "dreamt up" and the best way of not being blamed for misleading people is to disown the claim. Smart. But maybe too smart, i.e. I think Americans are waking up to that the administration has been less then honest with them. It is beginning to backfire. I believe many people think like me: Getting rid of Saddam = good thing Being lied to regarding urgency, justification etc = bad thing. The outcome does not always justify the means.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #7 September 18, 2003 i feel bad to be a part of this country and the shit it stands for --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vlad 0 #8 September 18, 2003 Now there are two more things left for Bush to say out loud : that there were no WMDs and that the whole war was a bloody mistake... or even - crime. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #9 September 18, 2003 QuoteGood for him! Good to see them clearing up a myth they had previously been encouraging. I think it's important that the people who vote in this country have an accurate idea of what's going on, both in our government and in the world. QuoteRice, asked about the same poll numbers, said, "We have never claimed that Saddam Hussein had either direction or control of 9/11." I try to keep a keen ear and eye open for things like this and I've never seen "encouragement" for a myth. I've admired Dick Morris even when he was working for Clinton. His political insight is unmatched in my opinion. His column, in my opinion, is neither a condemnation over anything that W has confirmed, denied, etc., rather an encouraging word to not lay down too much longer. He's right, too many people have forgotten, and that troubles me. I write to people in the middle east regularly and the fact that we are at war is foremost in my mind every day. That, and that all the terrorists are flowing to Iraq is proof positive as to how important that front is.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #10 September 18, 2003 Quotei feel bad to be a part of this country and the shit it stands for I actually don’t think you should. I would feel bad about having a government that has an ideological driven amateurish foreign policy. I would feel bad about being lied to. But governments come and go. I am worried because everybody on this planet is affected by US policy – that does not mean I feel that the US “stands for shit”. I actually think the US at its best stands for freedom and innovation. They are just going through a phase where the current politicians are worse then usual (IMO). So don’t beat yourself up.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #11 September 18, 2003 Quotei feel bad to be a part of this country and the shit it stands for It stands for allowing you to say what you just said. It's too bad it doesn't appear you appreciate it.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #12 September 18, 2003 QuoteThat, and that all the terrorists are flowing to Iraq is proof positive as to how important that front is. Could you explain this please? I thought they are flowing in because there are US targets to hit, which would not be the case if the US had not invaded. What does this proof?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #13 September 18, 2003 QuoteQuoteThat, and that all the terrorists are flowing to Iraq is proof positive as to how important that front is. Could you explain this please? I thought they are flowing in because there are US targets to hit, which would not be the case if the US had not invaded. What does this proof? If that were true, we would have seen a upsurge in terrorist activity in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain years ago. Also, remember, the attacks on 9/11, the embassy bombings were not military targets. Even the UN is being hit in Iraq. The timing is very important in all of this. The US is no longer in, or is soon to be out of Saudi Arabia. This is a major target of Al Qaeda. This also embeds a US presence in very moderate, highly market driven countries like Qatar and Bahrain and for the near term, Iraq. This is the back yard of all the major terror organizations whose mission is to see an end to western influence, Israel, and domination of Islam.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #14 September 18, 2003 QuoteIf that were true, we would have seen a upsurge in terrorist activity in Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain years ago. Also, remember, the attacks on 9/11, the embassy bombings were not military targets. Even the UN is being hit in Iraq. I have difficulty following you logic - but that is probably my fault. Saudi and the other countries you mention have a very strong security "apparatus" - Iraq has not at the moment - it has been "dismembered" by the Americans. This is why it is so much easier for those guys to "roam" -there is administrative chaos and lawlessness in most of the country. BTW there have been terrorist attacks against western targets in Saudi not that long ago. Also, Iraq is "target rich" in regard to Americans everywhere - that is not the case in the other countries. The UN and many others like Suni clerics are also being attacked - my guess is to keep the country destabelised.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #15 September 18, 2003 >The timing is very important in all of this. The US is no longer in, or > is soon to be out of Saudi Arabia. This is a major target of Al > Qaeda. This also embeds a US presence in very moderate, highly > market driven countries like Qatar and Bahrain and for the near > term, Iraq. This is the back yard of all the major terror organizations > whose mission is to see an end to western influence, Israel, and > domination of Islam. I agree that this was one of the reasons we went to war. I think it's unfortunate that the administration lied about the reasons to get popular support, though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
racer42 0 #16 September 18, 2003 It's not what they did ,GW and Co. it's how they did it. All it takes is a little honesty.L.A.S.T. #24 Co-Founder Biscuit Brothers Freefly Team Electric Toaster #3 Co-Founder Team Non Sequitor Co-Founder Team Happy Sock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #17 September 18, 2003 QuoteI have difficulty following you logic - but that is probably my fault. No, it was my fault. I was typing fast and not keeping up with my thoughts. QuoteSaudi and the other countries you mention have a very strong security "apparatus" - Iraq has not at the moment - it has been "dismembered" by the Americans. This is why it is so much easier for those guys to "roam" -there is administrative chaos and lawlessness in most of the country. BTW there have been terrorist attacks against western targets in Saudi not that long ago. Also, Iraq is "target rich" in regard to Americans everywhere - that is not the case in the other countries. The UN and many others like Suni clerics are also being attacked - my guess is to keep the country destabelised. In a way, you made my point for me. The USA's former presence in Saudi Arabia, was massive, compared to other operations in the region. The US could not protect its interests and leave Saudi without having significant footholds within other, less hostile countries (i.e. Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait). The US needed to be in these countries, not just for Iraq, but also to vacate Saudi Arabia, where they may now deal with their respective problems with Al Qaeda without the "flash point" of a US presence, thus enraging their Kingdom's subjects. These terrorists have traditionally hit civilian targets. That is part of how they instill "terror". The US civilian presence in Iraq is scarce. The purpose of the US military presence there is to now enforce some civil law, train a local police, a new military under a political leadership, and a political leadership built under the auspices of a republic, or democracy. The only targets for the terrorists to hit in Iraq are military, because it is these that are guarding the infrastructure that the civilians need. If they can disrupt the military apparatus enough, they can eventually get the general population on their side, and despite what the news tells us, the general population is, mostly okay with the current foreign forces in their country. The terrorists know that if a representative government gains roots in Iraq, then the power regimes in Iran, and Syria are in big trouble. They'd see the smoke in Moscow. They are at risk of losing their foothold in the entire region. The initial foundation that is in place to enabling Iraq to rebuild itself is the mere presence of the US primarily (whom we all know everybody hates and we're such bullies ) but also the UK, and Poland. The UN has always been there, but now they are a target too. For they know they cannot be a benign spectator. Yes, Iraq is the thorn right now, but look at what's led up to it... Sudan, Yemen, taking massive measures to clean their own house. The US removes a sore spot from the Saudi problem, Taliban gone, Qatar advancing massive reforms, Bahrain receiving protectorate type status from the US and NATO and pushing massive reforms (social and economic). Iran, whose advocates for social and economic reform are most certainly being fueled by western back channels. This is the bare beginning, a fragile beginning of turning around a region whose direction has been on the decline for over three centuries. Iraq, either symbolically, or through practicality, is the cradle of civilization and clearing the corrosive elements out of there is going to have a massive change of the psyche of the region. Need a parallel? Try and describe the "mood" of the western world in the years that followed the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall and end of the Cold War. Just my two cents...er...two bits let's say... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #18 September 18, 2003 Quote>The timing is very important in all of this. The US is no longer in, or > is soon to be out of Saudi Arabia. This is a major target of Al > Qaeda. This also embeds a US presence in very moderate, highly > market driven countries like Qatar and Bahrain and for the near > term, Iraq. This is the back yard of all the major terror organizations > whose mission is to see an end to western influence, Israel, and > domination of Islam. I agree that this was one of the reasons we went to war. I think it's unfortunate that the administration lied about the reasons to get popular support, though. While I disagree on the wholesale "lie" idea, the reason why no one gets to this detail is a) the press and b) the laymen of the world don't want to hear this kink of stuff. If I may be so bold, Bill, you and I are of "above average" intelligence and we find this stuff really interesting (it really is a big puzzle, and I just don't think you look at the pieces correctly all the time j/k). Most of the rest of the world does not. People like to think in simple linear terms Point-A to Point-B. Whereas you and I see Point-A, Point-A.1.1.1, Point-A.1.1.2. All of the reasons we've seen justifying the war had some measure of merit. We saw them all: Oil, Saddam, Terrorism, Regional Stability, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Israel, Syria, North Korea....just a few of the factors that were weighed in on this most recent front of the war. Personally, I have faith that most Americans would be able to handle more truth, bit by bit, but when you see how society reacts as a whole, (I blame the press for that) on many issues (the sniper, SARS, the economy ad infinitum) I don't blame GWB for not laying out the entire National Intelligence Estimate and other analyses that were done in the process.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ScottishJohn 25 #19 September 18, 2003 LMAO - thats the funniest subject title i've seen in ages. This is not really new news. I thought everyone knew that it was bin laden and his terrorist that crashed airplanes into various locations around the US.---------------------------------------------------------------------- If you think my attitude stinks you should smell my fingers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #20 September 18, 2003 Your country does not stand for shit. The American people are easily led, but are hard to drive. I think thats a positive trait. The truth will come out. At a Billion dollars a week and an American life a day, I would imagine some of you will be asking "What are we getting in return for this outflow of treasure and blood?" After rushing ahead and calling the UN "insignificant" the US is now asking for UN assistance. Someone never did the maths here. I'm glad Saddam is gone. I just think a little more thought, planning and international co-operation would not have gone amiss. Only 3 billion dollars of contracts have been handed to US firms to assist in rebuilding the Iraqi infrastructure. At a billion cost per week - thats poor ecconomics. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheMonkey 0 #21 September 18, 2003 Quotei feel bad to be a part of this country and the shit it stands for then move to canada --------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #22 September 18, 2003 Quotei feel bad to be a part of this country and the shit it stands for So leave.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #23 September 18, 2003 Quote"dreamt up" Dreamt up or not as you call it.. Sadham was and is a bad man. A bad man that Hates America. A bad man that killed his own people by the thousands. He is a war criminal. PERIOD. We didn't just go after Sadham. We went after Al dickheads in Afghanistan. I believe what we are doing is necessary. I hope it does more harm than good but I believe it to be necessary. I believe, proof or not, that Sadham has ties to 911. I remember seeing the picture on the wall in one of Sadham's palaces of the planes flying into the world trade center while sadham cheered Wake up people.. This constant political bickering makes me sick. Sadham will get what is coming to him.. A 50cal round right in the skull.. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andy2 0 #24 September 18, 2003 [QUOTE]Your country does not stand for shit. The American people are easily led, but are hard to drive. I think thats a positive trait. The truth will come out.[/QUOTE] My childlike view that there were bad guys and good guys in war has slowly eroded since age 12. For awhile I realized there were no bad guys and good guys. Now I tend to think I am on the "side" of the bad guys. I feel ashamed for the lives our militaries actions have destroyed. I feel pathetic while driving and see these USA flags being flown everywhere. Don't they understand the carnage that Bush has brought on? good post tonto, its good to hear a non american perspective, thanks. --------------------------------------------- let my inspiration flow, in token rhyme suggesting rhythm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #25 September 18, 2003 QuoteDon't they understand the carnage that Bush has brought on? Say again?? Who brought it on??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
