sundevil777 102 #1 September 11, 2003 The Democrat candidates Tuesday night certainly were very sure of themselves that there is/was no connection. I think they were just pandering to the hatred within their party. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,96825,00.htmlPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #2 September 11, 2003 You are joking? I hope.... For God sake - there is no proof (even according to GWB) that Iraq and Bin Laden did cooperate. There actually more proof that they actually were enemies. Please understand that Saddam's regime was secular (e.g. his vice-president was Christian) - that is why Osama hated Saddam - he wants fundamentalist Islamic states. The reason why these guys might be active now in Iraq has nothing to do with Saddam - but everything to do with the presence of Americans, i.e. it is an opportunity for them. Note the word “might” – lately I do not believe what I am being told about Iraq from US sources. I read the other day that up 70% of Americans believe Iraq was involved in 9/11 when it is absolutely clear that there is not even an indication of proof for this. GWB administration and their friends at Fox are doing a damn good job in feeding bullshit to the American people....--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #3 September 11, 2003 QuoteYou are joking? I hope Not joking. Ever heard the phrase, "strange bedfellows"? edit to add: Quotelately I do not believe what I am being told about Iraq from US sources. There must be some US sources that agree with your template of the world, but thank you for admitting that. More to come...People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #4 September 11, 2003 QuoteThere must be some US sources that agree with your template of the world, but thank you for admitting that. No, I do not believe them because of all the lies being told prior and during the War in Iraq. This story has even less credibility then the WMD claims. BTW - if you stopped watching Fox for a moment and did some research, you would see that there is plenty of evidence that Iraq did not cooperate with OBL prior to the war. If he does now, then it purely due to the current situation. It has been proven and been well known that Saddam paid money to Palestinian suicide bombers. But this is a different issue and not one of the "stories" told by GWB and his friends at Fox prior to the war (as it did not present clear and present danger to the Americans). This story is just trying to "justify" the lies you were told leading up to the war.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #5 September 11, 2003 QuoteThis story has even less credibility then the WMD claims. You seem to dismiss the entire story describing the clear connection before the war very quickly as a lie, and then say there is no evidence of a connection before the war. If you think this story has no credibility, then explain what was not true. Fox is quite threatening to your template. They actually have extended interviews with knowledgable people (after first explaining their affiliation-to help you make your own decision on their bias), with thoughtful, direct questions from experienced, respected news people. Very threatening indeed.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #6 September 11, 2003 I love Fox News. I keep trying to watch CNN, but the channel on my TV keeps magically changing back to Fox News. It must be a vast right-wing conspiracy. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #7 September 11, 2003 Should I laugh or cry? QuoteYou seem to dismiss the entire story describing the clear connection before the war very quickly as a lie, and then say there is no evidence of a connection before the war. If you think this story has no credibility, then explain what was not true. - The claim of the connection was not proven before the war and has not been proven since. This has been admitted by GWB himself. So the repeated claim as a reason to go to war was a lie because it claimed something to be a fact that was not proven at all. - The reason I do not give this story credibility is: a) These claims were made before the war and not proven until now. b) According to many other sources there are a lot of investigations going on and if you watch something else then Fox, you might hear Americans and UN people in Iraq talking about that they are not sure who is behind the different attacks (including the major bomb against the cleric). There are speculations that most are Saddam loyalist, other think al-Qaida is active, some think Iran has a finger in it. There is also doubt in regard to - if several groups are involved - how co-ordinated they are. So a lot of uncertainty. I do not know if al-Qaida is active in Iraq – they might – but we do not really know. It is especially stupid to try to "proof" connections prior to the war by speculating about connections now during the occupation. It is possible that al-Qaida has entered Iraq in order to take advantage of the situation and it is possible that they now are working with remainders of Saddams regime, united by their hatred against the US. Possible. But that does not mean it is fact and it does not prove that Saddam worked with al-Qaida before the war. I find it interesting that people like you take an opinion on a news program (and that is all that it is) and present it as fact. Seems like it happens all the time in the threads that discuss Iraq or GWB. And often these “facts” originate from your friends at Fox. QuoteFox is quite threatening to your template. No not at all. They are a threat to good journalism because they are in the business of propaganda (and good at it). I remember that the communists in Europe always told us that they were factual and balanced....But let us not start another Fox news thread. We have done that recently. Very threatening indeed. *** LOL I am so frightened.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #8 September 11, 2003 QuoteI love Fox News. I keep trying to watch CNN, but the channel on my TV keeps magically changing back to Fox News. They probably just tell you what you like to hear. And they are doing it in a very entertaining way (I watch it too - but most for laughs). In my mind that is not a criteria for good journalism.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #9 September 11, 2003 QuoteThey probably just tell you what you like to hear You're right, I usually like to hear "Fair and Balanced" reporting. But are you sure it is not a vast right-wing conspiracy? Hillary believes in those and we all know she is the most intelligent woman in the world. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #10 September 11, 2003 QuoteShould I laugh or cry? Laugh if in denial, cry if the truth hurts too much. You claimed there is no evidence. I showed you evidence. Just because YOU don't believe it, or accept it as enough to prove the conclusion (connection of Iraq & al Qaeda) does not make it invalid as a piece of evidence. QuoteAccording to many other sources there are a lot of investigations going on and if you watch something else then Fox, you might hear Americans and UN people in Iraq talking about that they are not sure who is behind the different attacks (including the major bomb against the cleric). There are speculations that most are Saddam loyalist, other think al-Qaida is active, some think Iran has a finger in it. There is also doubt in regard to - if several groups are involved - how co-ordinated they are. So a lot of uncertainty. I heard a lot about this very thing on Fox.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #11 September 11, 2003 QuoteI showed you evidence. Where. You showed an opinion expressed by someone on TV. Where is the evidence? Why do people like you don't get it? An opinion is not a fact. Laugh = because you are just soooooo in lal-la land Cry = feeling sorry for you--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #12 September 11, 2003 a-fucking-men.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #13 September 11, 2003 QuoteYou're right, I usually like to hear "Fair and Balanced" reporting. No, you like to hear news presented in a way that suits your view of the world and your political ideology. That does not make it fair or balanced. Quite the opposite. But are you sure it is not a vast right-wing conspiracy? Hillary believes in those and we all know she is the most intelligent woman in the world. *** Well, don't know about that. I have however studied Rupert Murdoch a lot (he is from Australia) and that is interesting reading. He is a very smart man. The concept behind Fox news is very smart. Conspiracy? No. Commercialisation of news and clear political agenda packaged and sold very smartly - yes.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #14 September 11, 2003 Definition of evidence: testimony; esp : matter submitted in court to determine the truth of alleged facts The story was much more than opinion. If you think it is false, find the fault in it (edit-then it would be false evidence). Why don't you get it? When the truth is not on your side, getting emotional seems to be the response.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #15 September 11, 2003 For god sake. A couple opf examples from that transcript: QuoteBRIT HUME, HOST: The appearance of al Qaeda (search) elements, joining forces with the remnants of Saddam Hussein's broken regime, has raised an interesting question. The above has actually not been proven. People are speculating that it is a possibility. But your "fair and balanced" reporter states this as a fact. (Typical Fox News stuff). Doing this sets the tone somehow doesn't it? Quote Are they there simply to resist American and coalition forces, or was there a stronger connection all along between Saddam Hussein's regime and Usama bin Laden's organization than the Bush administration was prepared to argue? So based on a fact that is actually not a fact, we are lead to conclude there was a connection because there is a connection now (which is unproven )????? QuoteBut after the First Gulf War, they both realized that they needed to ally themselves with the Islamists against the greater threat, which was the United States and the West. Now, this relationship developed consistently from 1992 onwards with Ayman al Zawahiri, No. 2 man in al Qaeda, developing strong links with Saddam Hussein's administration. That has never been proven. There is no prove that high ranking al-Qaeda members met with Saddams government to cooperate. I do not know the guy who is being interviewed. I just know there are many other "experts" who will have the opposite opinion. The thing goes on and on. Your own President GWB has clearly stated that there are no proved links between al-Qaeda and Saddams regime. If there were documented links the GWB administration would have published it. Examples from a quick search of the BBC web-site: 1. (article) A United Nations committee says it has found no evidence of a connection between Iraq and the al-Qaeda terror network. The UN terrorism committee has released a draft report on al-Qaeda and remnants of the Taleban from Afghanistan. 2. Article regarding Parlament committee findings looking into the war: There were also claims from the United States that Iraq was harbouring known al-Qaeda agents. No clear link between Iraq and al-Qaeda has been established. Having a quick look at the BBC web site, I found this one from June 3. An “expert” opinion – as much fact as the “expert” dragged in by Fox: “The Iraq war was a setback to the ongoing battle against terrorism because it diverted intelligence resources and provided a boost to al-Qaeda's recruitment, a terror expert has told MPs. Professor Paul Wilkinson of St Andrews University also raised the prospect of a nuclear terror attack in evidence to the Commons Foreign Affairs Select committee. He said most counter-terrorism experts accepted there was a "significant downside" to the Iraq war and he suggested there still might be terror attacks avenging the conflict. Prof Wilkinson told the committee: "All of us breathed a great sigh of relief at the fall of the brutal Saddam regime. "[But] most observers on counter-terrorism would accept there was a very significant down-side to the war in Iraq as far as counter-terrorism was concerned." He added: "It takes time for al-Qaeda to organise major attacks of a specialist nature, often months are involved in terms of preparing the personnel, getting the weapons in place and so on. "So we may not have seen the outcome of the plans laid in these recent months of war." Dirty bombs The professor, who heads St Andrew's centre for the study of terrorism and political violence, said al-Qaeda had shown a "great interest" in so-called dirty bombs. "It is quite possible they have the means to construct a dirty bomb technically," he said. Prof Wilkinson dismissed suggestions there was a link between Saddam Hussein's regime and al-Qaeda. "The story that there was a collaboration between them was dreamed up in Washington," he said. "I don't know who dreamed it up but I have found no substance to it." Etc. Try to get information from more then one source. Helps you make up your mind “fair and balanced”. And stop taking opinions (based on snippets of information) and present them as facts.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #16 September 12, 2003 More evidence of the connection: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97063,00.htmlPeople are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #17 September 12, 2003 QuoteMore evidence of the connection: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,97063,00.html LMAO QuoteSo, there is just no way that anybody can convince me that there is no connection. We have not yet found the forensic tie. That may be true. But to say that there's no connection whatsoever, that is absolutely not true. sounds like thier 'expert' is logically challenged. he has no proof or he would not need to refute attempts to convince him. he could simply provide proof. 'they have no forensic evidence, this is true' - i admire his spunk. he is willing to posit his opinion as truth but knows better than to deny that there is no proof of a connection. 'But to say that there's no connection whatsoever, that is absolutely not true.' - hmmm, if something is 'absolutely not true' would imply that it is 'absolutely true'? im confused. didn't he just say that there is no proof? somebody help me. looks a lot like an EXPERT OPINION. the argument we are having is about PROOF. this thread wasnt started on the premise that there was NO proof. it was started on the premise that there IS proof. you can yell all day long that i cant prove that there is no connection. but, my logically challenged friend, it is your responsibility to show PROOF that there IS a connection. not even your buddies at FOXNEWS can help you there. try again, grasshopper. lmmfao.namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #18 September 12, 2003 Mikkey I see you are still on your ridiculous 'FoxNews is a Republican forum' kick. Since you still don't get it, let TheAnvil try and help you out this time instead of simply ignoring you - even if you don't like XXXX Gold and I do - in the hopes you might be able to see the truth if presented in the right manner. Let's use colors - everyone likes colors (I know I do). These words are blue. I'll assume that you aren't colorblind. Anyone who isn't colorblind can look at the above sentence and know that anyone who claims the sentence is red doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. Simple enough for even Ted Kennedy on New Year's Eve (note that I didn't say Cinco de Mayobwaaaaahahahahahahahahaaa) Now Mikkey, many of us here in the forums WATCH FOXNEWS regularly - kind of like reading the above sentence - along with other news sources. By watching FoxNews and their news shows (commentary which the left hates) we hear things. A few interesting tidbits I've heard myself: -Sheppard Smith POUNDING the Bush administration's foreign policy (on a news program, not in the G block) - O'Reilly "The Bush administration is making mistakes in Iraq and not telling the American people" - O'Reilly during his episode on the Florida foster-care debacle "Jeb Bush is not doing his job to protect the children of the state of Florida" - O'Reilly with Rep. Tancredo on the Mexican border fiasco "President Bush is betraying his oath of office and not protecting the American people" (I paraphrased this because I can't remember the exact quote, but it's close enough) I could go on. I'm sure many other Fox afficionados could give other quotes as well. I personally went heavy on the O'Reilly quotes since lefties love to hate him so much. Now Mikkey, when you state that FoxNews is a republican PR outlet, those of us who watch FoxNews and hear quotes (such as the above) know that you don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. These words are blue Mikkey. When you can convince us they are really RED you'll have found an argument for your FoxNews hypothesis that can hold water, and we won't laugh at you anymore. Because many of us saw the Democratic presidential nominees debate[sic] on Fox this week, its softball questions from the moderators, the idiotic responses of its debaters, and all, we're really going to laugh HARD at you when you make such assertions this week. After all - that was PRIME TIME PR for those candidates - all via FoxNews. The words are blue Mikkey. Deal with it. Let go of your FoxNews hate. And get rid of that VB for a Toohey's.Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #19 September 12, 2003 Again, it is opinion not fact - people base opinions on second hand snippets of information, circumstantial evidence etc. Most experts have access to the same information and most have a different opinion then your friends at Fox (who also - as documented in above post - are spinning unproven claims into "fact"). For every "expert" at Fox, I probably can find 10 who tell you it is not proven or even that the claim has been dreamt up (took me 2 minutes to find 2 independent sources on the BBC web site). Seems like you did not bother reading my post. Note that even Fox admits, "Well, certainly the administration has never claimed a connection" With the administrations desperate need to prove at least some of their claims from before the war, don't you think they would if there was any proof? The line Fox has taken in this matter demonstrates what they mean by good journalism and "fair and balanced" reporting – they are in the business of selling agendas. BTW I do not claim that the connection OBL / SH is totally unthinkable (but it is unlikely) – but it is unproven – and you can only call something a “proof” or a “fact” if you just have that. Anything else is speculation / opinion. I hope you continue enjoying Fox feeding you exactly what you want to hear. I watched Fox last night our time (your morning) from NY regarding 9/11. They were talking to some people who are suing the Saudi Royal family for alleged involvement in 9/11. The Fox News guy was kissing their ass, telling them how wonderful and good their initiative and work was etc. Then one of the guys switched into a rant accusing Al Gore aiding and abetting the terrorist when he was VP. The presenter cut him off quickly and talked about “running out of time”. I had to laugh – would have loved to hear what this was about – Fox was probably nervous that something they just promoted as a wonderful cause was promoted by people who would discredit themselves by promoting outrages conspiracy theories.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,544 #20 September 12, 2003 I think they have a right slant to their news. They haven't fallen over, though. There are plenty of intellectually honest people who are right-wingies, just as there are plenty of intellectually honest liberals (like that non-connotative wording? ) To me, O'Reilly is rude; that's by far the most objectionable thing. He was as rude in his interview of the minister about the Paul Hill execution as I've seen (well, I've only seen him one other time). But not stupid. So the fact that they bash republicans they disagree with doesn't mean that they're liberal, fair, or honest. The fact that they're almost universal in their bashing of liberals does indicate a slant. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #21 September 12, 2003 If you would focus on the issues and not rant about beer, type face color and make derogatory comments your post could be half in size. QuoteNow Mikkey, when you state that FoxNews is a republican PR outlet I cannot remember saying that. I am saying they are not fair and balanced, they commercialise news, and they promote agendas (Rupert’s agenda), which is bad journalism. But they do it very well. There has been other threads discussing this and I mentioned some of the techniques used to push the agenda, i.e. which proponent of a certain view do you pitch against another, which news do you spend your time on, which comments do you attach to introductions or “wrap ups” etc. – the so called “examples” you mentioned are part of this. Interesting you can mention them – probably because it does not happen that often…. The agenda is not necessarily totally or officially aligned with the GOP – I would say it is close to certain factions of the GOP. But it is still Rupert’s agenda and he controls the “line” very strictly in his media empire. Certainly not “fair and balanced”. But hey - you seem to love it and find it fair - thats your opinion.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #22 September 12, 2003 QuoteThey probably just tell you what you like to hear. And they are doing it in a very entertaining way (I watch it too - but most for laughs). In my mind that is not a criteria for good journalism. and you love CNN and NPR right? Can you all get NPR way down there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #23 September 12, 2003 QuoteWhy don't you get it? When the truth is not on your side, getting emotional seems to be the response. they will never get it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #24 September 12, 2003 Nope, don't get NPR down here. I do have CNN, BBC, Skynews, ABC news, Australian media, Deutsche Welle, Scandinavian news services etc. I like a variety of sources to get several angles on a story. I am not politically aligned. Just don't like bad jounalism. Also have a problem with "circular" logic and "facts" that are really just an opinion. So your point is?--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #25 September 12, 2003 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why don't you get it? When the truth is not on your side, getting emotional seems to be the response. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- they will never get it. Well it seems that you and your friends sundevil and others are the emotional ones, throwing mud instead of arguing facts. It also those guys who post bigot post expressing views of "destroying" cultures and countries. Seems quite emotional to me.... So what about sticking to the facts and answering questions instead for a change? The posts above by me and others are challenging statements by citing alternative sources and asking for proof. "Going for the man instead for the ball" is the response it seems.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
