White House outs CIA agent

[TheAnvil 0]

Yeah, they were prepared and waiting. Better than I'd hoped. Bush Administration is probably going to be in more hot water over this than their Iraqi-centric foreign policy among conservative circles. The level of distaste the other party arouses will probably mitigate either though, when it comes time to go to the polls.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,118]

>I hadn't heard she's dead.

She's not dead; didn't claim she was. She can no longer work as a clandestine agent, therefore we lost a clandestine agent. She is now working in Washington at a desk job.

>Tell me - who is threatening her life right now. Has someone used
>this information to kill other operatives or compromise them? How
> did you come to be in possession of such information?

From the LA Times:

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R. James Woolsey, a former director of central intelligence, said the disclosure of the name of a CIA case agent, as intelligence officers who recruit and handle spies overseas are known, could cause considerable harm.

"Someone can backtrack and people can go check who a now-known case officer met with, knew, etc., in previous years and probably suspect them of being recruited" by the CIA, he said. "So in a country that's hostile or quasi-hostile or dictatorial, people could get killed for having associated with an American intelligence officer. That's the most serious worry."
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>If it was a partisan attack, it should sicken everyone.

I don't think the "if" clause applies. If indeed there was an intentional leak, for whatever reason, it should sicken everyone.

In the interim we need a rapid and intensive independent investigation, one that will not cave to political pressure from either side. We also need a name for it. Wilsongate? Treasongate?

>The above in reference to Sen Leahy. Isn't it fitting when discussing
>a topic to bring up other examples in recent history?

If you like. Or start another thread if you want to.

[TheAnvil 0]

'In the course of his news gathering, Novak has said, administration officials told him Wilson was sent at the suggestion of his wife, a CIA operative. Novak confirmed with the CIA that Wilson's wife was an employee there and printed her name despite the CIA's asking him not to do so. Novak said he was never told it would endanger her.'

Taken from the following story:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/10/01/wilson.cia/index.html

About once a week approximately equals fifty times per year, for you Gore supporters out there, give or take a couple.

If CIA confirmed with a reporter that Mrs. Wilson was an employee there, is her employment there classified? Or is Bob Novak not well known enough?

Speaking of Bob Novak, let's see what he has to say on this issue:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20031001.shtml

Oh. Of course Fox would never put anything up that would damage a Republican in ANY manner...LMFAO.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,98780,00.html

Also quite interesting: If Mrs. Wilson's maiden name - Plame - appears in Mr. Wilson's Who's Who in America entry and CIA officials confirm to a reporter that she is an employee, how can that be considered classified? Just wondering. Did CIA or the Administration spill the beans here? Or were any beans actually spilled?

Important questions. Ones to consider when discussing this issue. Ones to which the answer should become apparent as the investigation progresses. Ones that none of the lefties on the national stage will address.

When will Mr. Leahy be addressing the nation on this?

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

I've only been following this story tangentally, but has it been revealed at what level of cover she had; light, official or NOC?

Edited to add . . .

Holy crap! She was a NOC!

I dunno who did it, but nice going asshole!

This is serious no matter how you look at it. I wonder what Bush 41 has to say.

Edited to add . . .

How cover in the CIA works -- for beginners.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TheAnvil 0]

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From the LA Times:

----------------------------
R. James Woolsey, a former director of central intelligence, said the disclosure of the name of a CIA case agent, as intelligence officers who recruit and handle spies overseas are known, could cause considerable harm.

"Someone can backtrack and people can go check who a now-known case officer met with, knew, etc., in previous years and probably suspect them of being recruited" by the CIA, he said. "So in a country that's hostile or quasi-hostile or dictatorial, people could get killed for having associated with an American intelligence officer. That's the most serious worry."
------------------------

So she was a case agent. Hadn't heard that before. Is that a leak from Mr. Woolsey? Hope not. I've heard a lecture by him which was very impressive. He's a great speaker.

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I don't think the "if" clause applies. If indeed there was an intentional leak, for whatever reason, it should sicken everyone.

You have no idea if this was intentional at all. Pure speculation on the part of all.

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In the interim we need a rapid and intensive independent investigation, one that will not cave to political pressure from either side.

You agree with the President here.

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>The above in reference to Sen Leahy. Isn't it fitting when discussing a topic to bring up other examples in recent history?

If you like. Or start another thread if you want to.

You never answered my question - the answer is yes. All recent examples are pertinent and should be publicly examined to put that sort of thing in persepective.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kmcguffee 0]

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If this issue is more liberal spin I'd love to hear about it!

I think the liberal spin is that the leak was politically motivated from a member of the White House. That has yet to be proven or even reasonably substantiated. Whoever did it, from whatever party, should be punished along with Novak. I believe the media should be held responsible for releasing information that could get someone killed. Novak's actions were irresponsible.

This also doesn't sound like treason unless you consider Novak to be an enemy of the US.

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The Constitution of the United States, Art. III, defines treason against the United States to consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid or comfort. This offence is punished with death.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[quade 4]

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Hopefully. I would hope for an independent investigation to determine who in the administration outed a CIA agent; surely something you don't want to have happen twice. I suppose how fast or thorough you want the investigation depends on how much you value the lives of CIA covert operatives.

That's not even the half of it.

In every country she has ever visited, everyone she ever came in contact with will now be suspect. In many of those countries, those people will now simply disappear along with any intelligence they might have had.

This is a huge, stupid mistake that somebody made and will probably cost far more lives than we'll ever know.

Again, I don't know who did this, but nice going asshole.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[billvon 3,118]

>About once a week approximately equals fifty times per year, for you
>Gore supporters out there, give or take a couple.

The quote from the article was:
"And actually, the CIA reports roughly once a week compromises of classified information leaks to the Justice Department. They're required to do that."

For you Bush supporters out there, compromises of classified information is not the same as treason. I know it's tough to keep things like that straight when you're told things like "we did/didn't go to war over WMD's" and "Saddam has no ties/has ties to Al Qaeda" but it is an important point to remember.

>Important questions. Ones to consider when discussing this issue.
>Ones to which the answer should become apparent as the
> investigation progresses. Ones that none of the lefties on the
> national stage will address.

There is ONE question right now - and that is question is "is someone in the white house guilty of treason?" Trying to avoid answering that question by spinning it as "just another left wing attack," or by saying "Well, it wasn't treason if someone ELSE outed her first" is, well, pro-treason.

[billvon 3,118]

>This also doesn't sound like treason unless you consider Novak to be an enemy of the US.

Publically announcing (or even leaking to the press) who a US agent is gives aid to our enemies - and, as many keep reminding us, we are at war.

[TheAnvil 0]

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For you Bush supporters out there, compromises of classified information is not the same as treason.

This is true. Bush supporters know this. So do Libertarians.

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There is ONE question right now - and that is question is "is someone in the white house guilty of treason?"

Deliberately trying to harm the US by giving aid and comfort to an enemy? I doubt it seriously. Using knowledge gleaned due to one's position to attack someone politically in reprisal for doing his/her job? Possibly - sort of like the IRS auditing the Heritage Foundation four years in a row, eh? - but again doubtful.

Nobody is avoiding the question - it's not the only pertinent question either. It's out there. The Bush Administration is cooperating and facing the issue head on. No lost emails (but then again Cheney never claimed to take the lead in inventing the internet) or any misplaced FBI files or anything of the sort.

I think lefties are chortling over this because they've finally gotten themselves a pseudo-scandal to talk about.

One wonders how the name of a specific CIA operative would ever be sequitur to a White House level briefing. The info he/she provides - sure. The name - who gives a rat's ass. That leads me to believe that this WAS a deliberate thing of some sort, but it still seems a bit odd and very, very out of place. That seems more like something a senior CIA official or member of an intelligence committee or agency would be privy to.

One also wonders why such a long time passed between the column's release to the public and the current frenzy.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[kmcguffee 0]

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Publically announcing (or even leaking to the press) who a US agent is gives aid to our enemies

That is a stretch. It has to be a little more direct than that. Think of all of the espionage cases that weren't prosecuted as treason. Lindh and Jane Fonda weren't even tried for treason.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 3,118]

>Deliberately trying to harm the US by giving aid and comfort to an enemy?

In this case, attempting to advance their own agenda by giving aid and comfort to an enemy. From Webster:

"In the United States, treason is confined to the actual levying of war against the United States, or to an adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

Nothing about "deliberately trying to harm . . ." there.

>The Bush Administration is cooperating and facing the issue head on. No lost emails . . .

How do you know that? The White House Counsel's office gave staffers 12 hours from the time he received word of the investigation to the time he sent out the email warning people not to destroy anything. That means 12 hours of deniability. "Yeah, I deleted that email, but I always do that early in the morning; I hadn't gotten the Counsel's email yet."

>One wonders how the name of a specific CIA operative would ever be
>sequitur to a White House level briefing.

White House staffers often have access to confidential information.

>One also wonders why such a long time passed between the
>column's release to the public and the current frenzy.

I suspect efforts to contain it failed. I think it _was_ contained as long as it was because the media was leery of reporting something so controversial. The source called several reporters before they found one (Novak) willing to report it; besides his article, the only people reporting on it were bloggers.

I'll have to bring that up the next time someone goes on about the bush-hating, left-wing press.

[TheAnvil 0]

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Deliberately trying to harm the US by giving aid and comfort to an enemy?

In this case, attempting to advance their own agenda by giving aid and comfort to an enemy. From Webster:

"In the United States, treason is confined to the actual levying of war against the United States, or to an adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort."

Nothing about "deliberately trying to harm . . ." there.

Semantics. Yawn. How do you know this tidbit didn't just slip out? Do you know that the entire purpose of the interview in which this was gleaned was to release that bit of information? And how do you know that this tidbit of knowledge aids an enemy? You don't.

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How do you know that? The White House Counsel's office gave staffers 12 hours from the time he received word of the investigation to the time he sent out the email warning people not to destroy anything. That means 12 hours of deniability. "Yeah, I deleted that email, but I always do that early in the morning; I hadn't gotten the Counsel's email yet."

I don't know - I assumed, and believe I assumed correctly. 12 hours in DC is a short turnaround time. We'll see, but I'd wager no DeletedEmailGate will come out of this. Your deletion diatribe is plausible, but not at all likely.

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White House staffers often have access to confidential information.

True, but that sort of info would normally have to be requested. The only possible scenario I can imagine coming up would be one in which a senior White House person asked for a brief bio on Mr. Wilson and Mrs. Wilson's cover came up during it, but that sort of info is NOT common knowledge outside of Langley and few even in the WH would know it.

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>One also wonders why such a long time passed between the
>column's release to the public and the current frenzy.

I suspect efforts to contain it failed. I think it _was_ contained as long as it was because the media was leery of reporting something so controversial. The source called several reporters before they found one (Novak) willing to report it; besides his article, the only people reporting on it were bloggers.

I'll have to bring that up the next time someone goes on about the bush-hating, left-wing press.

The press isn't all left wing - Fox does an excellent job, as does NewsMax. I don't believe the press is leery of reporting anything controversial about the Bush administration.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[quade 4]

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Semantics. Yawn. How do you know this tidbit didn't just slip out?

Even the stupidest person in THE WHITE HOUSE would understand that classified information is highly sensitive and knows that you simply can NOT let things "slip out". In order to get clearance to have access to that sort of information a person has to go through quite a bit of security clearance and training in how to deal with classified information. Nothing just "slips out".

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Do you know that the entire purpose of the interview in which this was gleaned was to release that bit of information?

Please see above. If the presumption is that a person that has classified information, then spreads that information it is only logical to assume they did it on purpose. Again, nothing this sensitive could possibly just "slip out".

Look, this isn't simply an invitee for the annual Easter Egg Roll -- she appears to have been at least an offical cover and quite possibly a NOC! Information about who is at that level of cover is, without a doubt, Top Secret.

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And how do you know that this tidbit of knowledge aids an enemy? You don't.

It -ABSOLUTELY- aids the enemy by helping them to clean up their security issues. It let's them know who to look for -- anybody she had contact with. And it does reveal our sources and methods.

Whoever leaked this was a total asshat.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TheAnvil 0]

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Even the stupidest person in THE WHITE HOUSE would understand that classified information, and clearly knowledge of who is and who is not a NOC -IS- classified, knows that you simply can NOT let things "slip out". In order to get clearance to have access to that sort of information a person has to go through quite a bit of security clearance and training in how to deal with classified information. Nothing just "slips out".

I've dealt with such info before. Things do slip out - though very infrequently and never through me. Or didn't you see that nice gunship video a few months ago that the Pentagon was a bit irked about?

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Please see above. If the presumption is that a person that has classified information, then spreads that information it is only logical to assume they did it on purpose. Again, nothing this sensitive could possibly just "slip out".

Did you even read my question? You know for a fact that the entire purpose of the Novak interview was to reveal that bit of info so he would release it to the press? Gimme a break. You know better, as do I. Your assertion is laughable.

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Look, this isn't simply an invitee for the annual Easter Egg Roll -- she appears to have been at least an offical cover and quite possibly a NOC! Information about who is at that level of cover is, without a doubt, Top Secret.

I'd say a bit above that. Quite a bit above that.

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***And how do you know that this tidbit of knowledge aids an enemy? You don't.

It -ABSOLUTELY- aids the enemy by helping them to clean up their security issues. It let's them know who to look for -- anybody she had contact with. And it does reveal our sources and methods.

Really? All of her moves were tracked and recorded in every operation, every country she visited, all the time? You're living in a fantasyland of your own making. Neither you, I, nor anyone else at this point in time knows the full effect of the release of said information. The potential is there, but I feel it's low.

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Whoever leaked this was a total asshat.

Agreed.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 3,118]

>And how do you know that this tidbit of knowledge aids an enemy? You don't.

So you would defend someone who sold nuclear weapons secrets to the Chinese? After all, maybe the Chinese knew that stuff anyway and were just _pretending_ to need to know about ablative tampers. Or maybe the official didn't know that nuclear weapons were, well, a big deal, or that they were a big secret.

Claiming that an official who leaks secret information on undercover agents "maybe isn't really aiding the enemy" is about the weakest point you've made so far.

>I don't believe the press is leery of reporting anything controversial
>about the Bush administration.

Except for this, an exception you mentioned.

[quade 4]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/974912.asp

Interesting explainer article about the politics of this particular leak (and even I'll admit this one is a bit left of center), but it's good analysis none the less.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[TheAnvil 0]

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So you would defend someone who sold nuclear weapons secrets to the Chinese? After all, maybe the Chinese knew that stuff anyway and were just _pretending_ to need to know about ablative tampers. Or maybe the official didn't know that nuclear weapons were, well, a big deal, or that they were a big secret.

Not at all.

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Claiming that an official who leaks secret information on undercover agents "maybe isn't really aiding the enemy" is about the weakest point you've made so far.

Not at all my point and you know it. Reread what I wrote.

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>I don't believe the press is leery of reporting anything controversial
>about the Bush administration.

Except for this, an exception you mentioned.

You assume you are correct in the reason for the delay in reporting frenzy. A position I do not hold.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!