Now this makes me sad

[skymama 37]

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I would like to believe that people like this don't still exist, but I suppose that's asking too much - that there will come a day when well-behaved children will be more noticeable than what color the people at the table next to you are.

The other day, I dropped my daughter off at her new best friend's house to spend the night. All I knew was the girl's name, I had never met her. Her father, a very nice, dark skinned man answered the door. I walked away with the biggest grin on my face. Obviously in my daughter's mind, it was never an issue to ever mention to me that her new best friend wasn't a white girl! I was so proud of her that skin color wasn't an issue to her. It turns out that the girl is half African-American, half Puerto-Rican.

Also, in my son's soccer game last weekend, there was one kid on the other team who was faster than everyone on the field. He was the only "Black kid" on the field, and that is how all the parents were referring to him. When my son was going over the game with us afterwards, he never referred to the player as "the black kid", he only referred to him by his number, as he would have with any of the "white" kids.

So, Bill, maybe that day isn't ever going to come with our generation. But if we parents keep doing things right, maybe the day will come with the next generation.

She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

[pds 0]

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Me too.

Really, really sad.

But not as sad as the people attacking you for noticing what they think makes me.

t

sorry t, it werent the 's'. i guess my eyes just kinda filled that typo in for you as i read it. it is that your statement is not clear to me. i know you mean what you say and i want to understand it.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Tonto 1]

PM'ing you.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Pammi 0]

Nice Skymama. My daughter actually came home the other day and said how she'd heard this boy liked her and proceeded to tell me all she'd heard about him, how he was tall, nice and smart. It didn't come up until later that he was black; she said she didn't really think about it. I was proud of her. I won't lie and say that it doesn't concern me a little if she were to date a boy later of a different race (she's too young now to be dating anyway!) because while she doesn't see it, and I don't care what he is, just who he is, others WILL notice. I had to deal with my own father's prejudices when I married her father who was Mexican. I wouldn't imagine it'd be a simple relationship for her, but I guess most aren't anyway and I think she's brave enough to think for herself.

You know I have noticed that a lot of kids nowdays seem more tolerant then even when I was a teenager. They enjoy being 'weird' and 'different'...actually try to be. That's so fantastic.

Pammi

[pds 0]

p.s.

i think that you did not accurately represent the spirit of the article that prompted your post and while i am fundamentally opposed to your summary i do know that you are a kind and thoughtful man. just so you know.

namaste, motherfucker.

[Deuce 1]

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But I seriously doubt you were reading the National Review with an open mind either.

And what "should" an open minded person read?

Everything.

I don't read the East Bay Express by picking it up and asking myself "Wonder what these deviant drug-addled socialists are up to today?".

I can only hope that folks don't lon into National Review Online asking themselves "Wonder what these uptight conservative family-values religious right wingers are up to today?"

A new friend recently painted all family values oriented conservatives with a broad brush. It hurt.

I had a black partner who witnessed me being dissed in a similar way quite a few years ago, and his response to my discomfort was "So how to YOU like it?" That made things a lot worse. My response was "I don't like it at all, which is why I have never intentionally hurt anybody like that person just hurt me." That actually opened up a wonderful dialogue between us, and nobody I've met, or anything I've read has educated me about the black experience. Or at least Glenn's black experience.

But if the topic was verboten, if my discussing it was greeted with a rolling of eyes, and a clicking of tongues, I would not have recieved that education.

So, for me and open mind is having read the book on something, when presented with a person who rhetorically asks "Do you know why this is the way it is?" to answer "No, tell me" and listen to their answer.

The fact that their answer is their reality makes it relevant.

[rehmwa 2]

This whole thread is about being color blind. A great thing I'd like to teach my daughter and a thing my generation tries to do but aren't allowed most of the time. I think each generation is better than the last here despite all the mistakes of Affirmative Action, lumping groups, counting etc.

Funny, my impression here is people are completely 180 degrees out of sync with their positions on Prop 54.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[turtlespeed 226]

Color blindness - taught - no, it's anti-colorblindness that is taught.
Racial superiority is LEARNED.

I too think that parts of this article are wrong on so many levels.
Those levels have to do with political bias. This is not the thread to
inject those beliefs though.

JP - Right On!

Chronistin - You took the story and derived what few else could - It is refreshing when "Family Values" are recognized. Well behaved children in a restraunt are the oddity here, not the color, race, or marital status of the couple w/ the well behaved kids. What the underlying picture in this article, if you choose to see it that way, is that a set of adults actually care enough to instill respect, pride, and manners into their children. That in it's self is "Statistical Anomoly".

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,125]

>Bill, I wonder just how much time you have spent in the African
>American inner city.

Worked in NYC for a few years. Spent a while in an African inner city (Niamey.)

>So this person sees a nuclear black family, which is statistically an
> anomaly, and remarks on it. You sneeringly condemn them for
> expressing their opinion and shut off any possibility of dialogue.

I don't condemn them for making an observation. I am saddened that they were shocked to see that a black family could be seen together - as shocked as if they'd seen a ghost.

>Any statistical anomaly is worth remarking. I get "You've been
>married to your first wife for 17 years? No shit!" all the time.

Now imagine they'd said that to you, then said to their friends "and to think that wives of her type are usually cheating on their husbands. Who'd have thought that those type could make good wives? But that's great, we WANT that type to stop being so amoral."

[billvon 3,125]

>The person in question was HAPPY to see a successful black family
>having a nice night out and you slam the hell out of him.

I have no problem with anyone being happy about anything. I do have a problem when people react to seeing a successful family as if they'd seen a ghost - whether that family is white, black, yellow or red.

>but there was absolutely no malice in that guy's observation whatsoever

I agree; I don't think there was any malice in them. Any more than there is malice in someone saying "he's a great worker for a black guy!" or "I was really worried when _they_ all came into the store, but nothing bad at all happened."

[Vallerina 2]

You know...that story reminds me of something that happened my freshman year of college. My roommate and I were both in engineering, and we were both very similar (from the same area, similar upbringing, both close with our grandmas, both of us hated chemistry, etc.) We went to a cheesey engineering event together and just wandered about the tables of people trying to get us to join stuff. One woman we both talked to remarked how great it was that someone of her culture was in engineering. Sure, it's great of anyone to get into a field they can be successful in, but she was confused on how her "culture" made it remarkable for her to be in that field.

I think it will be a great day when people stop noticing color and when it's no longer astounding for someone to do a somewhat normal task.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Deuce 1]

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Now imagine they'd said that to you, then said to their friends "and to think that wives of her type are usually cheating on their husbands. Who'd have thought that those type could make good wives? But that's great, we WANT that type to stop being so amoral."

I call bullshit Bill.

There's nothing in the article or this discussion to this point that indicates that the behaviour of my wife is statistically anomolous.

It is your nasty sidelong attacks that make any political discussion with you so unpleasant.

Very different than the very pleasant guy you are in person. But sometimes I get tired of listening to you condescendingly cast judgement.

Making this personal is low, even for your standards of debate.

So when did you stop beating your wife, huh?

[billvon 3,125]

>There's nothing in the article or this discussion to this point that
>indicates that the behaviour of my wife is statistically anomolous.

But you yourself said that 17 year marriages are anamolies; it would be their _interpretation_ that it's because wives cheat. Heck, in this world of easy access to stats, they could probably prove it. In the article referenced, the fact presented was that 70% of black children are born into families without fathers; it is their _interpretation_ that therefore this family had somehow avoided the common black-deadbeat-dad syndrome.

>It is your nasty sidelong attacks . . . .

Funny how different it seems when the subject of the prejudice isn't just another racial group, eh?

>So when did you stop beating your wife, huh?

I gotta _get_ one of those first!

[pds 0]

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as shocked as if they'd seen a ghost.

bill, you are repeating yourself. psssttt..... it wasn't that good the first time. there are a lot of nice people in here and you are leading the charge down a dark alley.

intolerance and ignorance are ugly regardless of whom it is visited upon. and i am not certain that you know who you are angry with or why.

take a minute and read the shit that you have used as fodder for your argument. get a grip.

you are amongst friendlies, if not friends. AND you are a moderator. start acting like it.

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***"Hey - look - blacks! And they're not even in jail or on crack! Quick, honey, get a picture of me and the little kid. The folks back in Whitesville will be so impressed!"

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Now imagine they'd said that to you, then said to their friends "and to think that wives of her type are usually cheating on their husbands. Who'd have thought that those type could make good wives? But that's great, we WANT that type to stop being so amoral."

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saying "he's a great worker for a black guy!" or "I was really worried when _they_ all came into the store, but nothing bad at all happened."

namaste, motherfucker.

[Deuce 1]

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>There's nothing in the article or this discussion to this point that
>indicates that the behaviour of my wife is statistically anomolous.

But you yourself said that 17 year marriages are anamolies; it would be their _interpretation_ that it's because wives cheat. Heck, in this world of easy access to stats, they could probably prove it. In the article referenced, the fact presented was that 70% of black children are born into families without fathers; it is their _interpretation_ that therefore this family had somehow avoided the common black-deadbeat-dad syndrome.

>It is your nasty sidelong attacks . . . .

Funny how different it seems when the subject of the prejudice isn't just another racial group, eh?

>So when did you stop beating your wife, huh?

I gotta _get_ one of those first!

None of it is funny Bill. A demonstration of ethics would be knowing you could prove your point statistically and refraining from doing so.

It's been about a year, I think, since I participated in one of your lopsided PC judgement fests. I've had enough. See you next year.

[Designer 0]

We try rise above certain petty crap.Being really overly judgmental about race issues does show little respect.At times,I've been just as guilty as anyone can be.Also,i\I've tried to learn to get along with just about anybody at anytime.It may be just like you say,a generational thing?Let's hope not?

[billvon 3,125]

>None of it is funny Bill.

I can't help but feel like you're using different standards here for something that affects you personally. Take a different article:

----------------------
A couple of years ago, I was eating out when I heard a conversation at the next table. What I heard - a couple who said they had been happily married for a while now; nothing unremarkable about that.

But I also heard his wife say she was from town X, and had been married for 17 years. And I remembered then that, statistically speaking, the average marriage in the US lasted only 7 years, and that, statisically speaking, women from town X cheat on their husbands 60% of the time.*

And rather than think anything negative about people like her, I wanted to give her a high-five! She beat the odds, and they're still together - she's managed to not cheat on her husband and destroy their marriage.

That's the problem with all these liberals. They think people like us hate women. But we love to see people like her overcome their disadvantages and succeed against the odds! Anyone who claims we're 'prejudiced' because of that doesn't know what they're talking about.
--------------------------

* - replace town X with any town you want; 60% is the national average.

Seem any different when it's about you?

[Deuce 1]

But it's not about me.

It's about your using the oldest debating trick in the books. When you can't win on ideas, attack your opponent.

That's twice you've tried to turn this thread personal on me. And you chose to use my wife as the subject, rather than me.

I am trying to simply walk away from this discussion.
If you must continue to use an example of low morals in your examples, use me.

[Vallerina 2]

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When you can't win on ideas, attack your opponent.

I don't think he attacked you. I just think he used the tactic of trying to get you to see what it's like in someone else's shoes.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[Pammi 0]

I'm surprised this thread isn't locked by now. THIS thread is what's sad.

Pammi

[sinker 0]

I'm surprised this thread isn't locked by now. THIS thread is what's sad.***

VERY well said !!!

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[turtlespeed 226]

So, who can lock a greenies thread? Why, well, 'cuz
The entire thread in it self is a clear example of bigotry and bias and should not be supported by this or any other forum.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much - Shakespear

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[Vallerina 2]

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1) It involves a percieved personal attack (several)

I'm not really sure I saw any personal attacks (that's what wildblue's tag board is for! ) Maybe I'm just oblivious.

I think what Bill was trying to point out (I am probably wrong, but he can just delete my post and ban me if I am ) was the kind of racism shown in that article. I will change it over to sexism, since I can relate to that more.

Nowadays, instead of someone saying, "No, you cannot go into a math related field because you're femal," they say, "Wow, that's great you can do math, even though you're female." Someone who wasn't sexist would simply say, "Wow, that's awesome you have strong mathematical abilities." I'm not sure if that makes sense to anyone, but it does to me, so I'm happy with that!

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[turtlespeed 226]

Ok, so I see your point, but my point is that posts are deleted and locked for much less.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[jfields 0]

I don't see the personal attack either. I see a number of posts by various people that could have been worded better, but no fork-worthy personal attacks.