Benefits of Blacklisting?

[mfrese 0]

This letter in this month's Parachutist is hitting me pretty hard at the moment. In it, a DZ owner proposes putting the name of the person or company who sold the canopy to the person listed in incidents, as a way of "blacklisting" the dealer or person responsible for the sale. I'm curious what DZ.commers think about this particular issue.
I'll tell you what I think...I'm normally all about freedom of choice, personal responsibility, etc. But I've now known three people who died under perfectly good parachutes that they didn't have the experience to fly, and I'm getting pretty fucking tired of it. The blacklist idea sounds pretty good to me, except that in all likelihood it will serve as an advertisement for the kind of people who are progressing quickly and want to downsize and start swooping with 30 jumps. I'm not sure what to do...blacklists, better training, the ever-popular wing-loading BSR, smarter instructors, canopy control schools at every dropzone, whatever. It's time to take some action, and I'm just curious what y'all think.
OK, opinions, flame away, whatever. And say a prayer for Paul Cousins while you're at it.

Thanks,

Iceman

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[turtlespeed 226]

That was me at 30 jumps. I have just started to see what people were talking about. I feel so silly for my "younger views". I thank the DZ staff for the insight to slow me down enough to learn for myself that I needed to slow down.

Thanks Y'all,

You Rawk!

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[TheAnvil 0]

Mike I thought about this for a bit myself. I think it's sort of an inferred responsibility for any of us selling a canopy/rig to ask the person we're selling it to how many jumps they've got/experience level/etc. But for new purchases, new gear purchases, and etc such questioning is infeasible.

In Paul's case, he was told by several people at H-town that he did NOT have the experience to jump that canopy and was putting himself in danger by doing so. He made a choice not to listen to people that he KNEW had a lot more knowledge and experience than he. Knowing all of the Hollister crew, none of them would have done so in a degrading or asshole-ish manner. All of us liked him and everyone who told him that was just looking out for a friend, I'm sure. Now, sadly and it brings a tear to my eye, he's paid the ultimate price for his choice. But it was his choice.

I think that BSR is needed and Paul's incident is a true testament to that fact. Perhaps drumming it into students' heads harder in the training process as well. Probably the most immediate and effective thing all of us can do - instructors and non-students alike - is make sure we TALK to these newbies (I'm still a low timer newbie type as well) about such things and do so frequently. I think BillVon had a post a while back about the responsibility that comes with drinking free beer a while back, and that's sort of what I'm getting at.

More prayers for Paul and his family. This is a tragedy for the whole skydiving community and all of our friends.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[mfrese 0]

I'm glad you had a DZ filled with people who looked out for you, and that you were smart enough to listen to them. The problem is, sometimes it only takes one "Nah, you'll be bored with that in 50 jumps, you should get THIS ONE" to convince people to do the wrong thing.

BTW, I noticed that skybytch has opened a similar thread over in General Skydiving Discussions, that's probably a more appropriate forum for this discussion...unless you're like me and are pissed off and need to vent, in which case feel free to use this one.

Iceman

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[Nightingale 0]

if you buy it its your own fault.

[Sebazz1 2]

The only good deterant to selling someone a canopy they are not ready for is for the seller to promise that they explain to the parents of said individual why their kid is dead. You think that's overeacting??!! Might make you think twice before recomending someone downsizes before they are ready.

~ Just wait. This sport is going to fuck itself if we don't show we can self regulate. And if people don't fall in line they need to have their right to sell gear yanked. Simple...

[skybytch 273]

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if you buy it its your own fault.

I'm sure this is going to come off like I'm an elitist or something.. that's really not how I mean it but anyway... you haven't been in the sport long enough to have an opinion on this one.

In fact, imho of course, until any jumper has witnessed and/or lost a friend to a canopy accident they haven't been around long enough to have a valid opinion on this subject.

We lost another young jumper to a canopy accident today. It's way past time for this shit to stop.

[squirrel 0]

so when do they stop selling street bikes with 160 mph top speeds to 16 year olds, fast cars to idiots who cant drive, guns to untrained poeple....

you buy a small chute, your porblem. dont tell me that someone who slaps down that much money doesnt think about it...and if they do, and die, well...the gene pool has been improved.

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Where is Darwin when you need him?

[skybytch 273]

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well...the gene pool has been improved

Nice. I'm sure the family and friends of those who made poor decisions and died for them will thank you for pointing that out to them.

[lizzieb 0]

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you buy a small chute, your porblem. dont tell me that someone who slaps down that much money doesnt think about it...and if they do, and die, well...the gene pool has been improved.

small isn't always the problem...canopy type makes a huge difference too. and new jumpers are not always aware of this, therefore a lot of responsibility lies on the gear seller.

as far as the rest of your post, i don't think somebody's death, a fellow skydiver's death, should EVER be referred to as an improvement in the gene pool...that shit just ain't right brother...

[squirrel 0]

well, what do we do...hold everyones hand...for life...or get people to wake up and think for themselves. sorry, but people used to do more of that...

i've was on a load with a swooper. as we took off, the winds were changing directions radically. i commented that it might poor conditions to swoop in... and caught a rash of shit. well, you know what, one of them missed and died. again, if this guy was thinking for himself...he might be alive.

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Where is Darwin when you need him?

[Nightingale 0]

if you're going to be the one jumping it, the burden of determining if the canopy is appropriate for you lies with you.

in the end, YOU are the one strapping on that rig. Therefore, its up to you to do the research and make sure the equipment is the right equipment for you.

[squirrel 0]

can you honestly tell me that when someone goes to buy a chute, they dont inquire as too the handling characteristics? again, people need to think more.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[squirrel 0]

well put

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Where is Darwin when you need him?

[TheAnvil 0]

While I share your love of the personal responsibility concept, I find the latter portion of your post sickening.

Regardless of your opinion of Paul's decision to jump that canopy - and it was HIS decision in the end - the closing of your post displays a cold indifference to the feelings of some really fine people who are denizens of this online community. If you had read some of the posts about Paul's incident or even my own or the initial one on this thread you might have come to the realization that many of us are hit pretty hard by this. Such callous disregard for the feelings of others is inappropriate in any setting.

Excuse me whilst I retch in disgust.

[lizzieb 0]

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can you honestly tell me that when someone goes to buy a chute, they dont inquire as too the handling characteristics? again, people need to think more.

sure they inquire about it, but most probably think they can handle it...that is where experienced people can give advice.

i totally agree that people need think more...i never disagreed with that...

[bendywendy 0]

I'd like to see the skydiver's themselves using common sense. I would hate to see a list of jump numbers to canopy size/wingloading come out. You can't say that Joe Schmo will be ready for this size canopy when he hits jump number 500 and are you going to hold back someone with awesome natural ability and who has maybe used every jump as a learning jump with canopy skills because maybe he/she has progressed so much faster than their peers. Now suddenly they can't jump that other canopy because well, sorry you can't do that until you have another 500 jumps under your belt. And what about the jumper who has a thousand jumps but they are spread out over a 15 year period - is he a better pilot than the guy with 400 jumps all done this year? So what kind of rules? What kind of numbers would we use? And once the canopy gets really small it isn't just wingloading anymore wingsize becomes a large factor.

I'm a small female. My wingloading is very light although my canopy is under 100sqft. and I'm pretty agressive. I'm about to downsize again. If you just look at my wingloading it's no big deal at all but I had to think long and hard about if I was ready for the new canopy since it's getting to the ridiculous little handkerchief size. I demoed it and loved it but have still thought long and hard about it because I am agressive. I do swoop and it only takes one misjudgement to ruin your day or life.

I don't have the answers but I don't understand why these jumpers who don't have the skill, who are told they don't have it either just go do what they want anyway or find someone who will tell them what they want to hear.

Listen to everyone! Half of them are talking shit - filter it out. If there are people telling you that they don't believe you are ready - listen to them. Don't just ask until you hear what you want to hear. If someone selling a canopy is telling you that you are ready for it and everyone on your dz has said you aren't - duh, they want to sell a canopy and they see you want to buy that hot little number. Don't fall for the - "I'm not just saying this because I'm trying to sell this thing." line - they are just trying to sell the thing and they are betting on the odds that you are smart enough not to break yourself up. That even if it is too much for you, you will just slow down and take it easy and grow into the canopy once you scare yourself silly.

[skybytch 273]

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well, what do we do...hold everyones hand...for life...

No. We limit what they can buy until they've gained enough experience and gotten enough training to handle a higher wingloading when things go to shit.

We can't stop anyone from doing something stupid under canopy. We can limit how small of a canopy they do it under - at least until they have a couple hundred jumps and have seen what can happen if/when they fuck up.

[squirrel 0]

as much as you hate how "cold" i seem, its logic, and not emotions that fuel this discussion. people have got to start thinking...understanding where they are, and how experienced they are in the sport. step back, put the adrenaline aside and think. in a sport with life and death outcomes, being "cold" or rather straight forward is necessary. maybe we should regulate the sport, then people will just break the regulations. people need to think before they leap.

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Where is Darwin when you need him?

[squirrel 0]

to keep you from retching, and for the feelings of the others...apologies. really, i just want poeple to think more.

________________________________
Where is Darwin when you need him?

[TheAnvil 0]

The latter portion of your post had nothing to do with logic. It was you expressing your disdain for those who do not use it. The forums are not a life and death place - I assure you we're all quite comfortable as we type (with the exception of the taste of bile filling my mouth as I think on your post). Your own logic is not in question - personal responsibility is paramount in any activity, especially our own sport of skydiving.

What is in question is the manner in which you made your original remark and several of your responses to others protesting it. Show some respect for the feelings of others and cut it out. I assure you LizzieB would do the same for you. Respecting others and their feelings is also a matter of personal responsibility - one in which you have either been extremely negligent or have actively chosen to disregard.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Sebazz1 2]

It would be easy and ideal to have people be responsible for their own decisions and actions. But how can we honestly agree that someone with less than 300 jumps really understands what they are flying? I bet there are folks right now with 300 jumps that disagree with me. They will see. Skydivers are prooving that they can not make good decisions when flying perfectly good canopies. Not everyone, not most jumpers mind you, but enough to warrant some serious review of how we do regulate who jumps what and when. Enough to to warrant making a decision for a lower time jumper that may or may not be unable to make a sound decision on a canopy purchase for him or her self. Enough to possibly punish those who sell canopies to individuals with total disregard to manufaturer recomendations and common sense...

[skybytch 273]

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maybe we should regulate the sport, then people will just break the regulations

We do regulate the sport - in the US they're known as the BSR's and every one of them was written in blood. Yes, people break them - again we can't regulate against stupidity.

I'm all for people thinking and taking personal responsibility for their choices. I've been accused of being cold and/or insensitive on this very point in the past.

But imho until someone has been jumping for awhile they have NO CLUE WTF they are getting into with a high wingloading or aggressive canopy type.

It's up to those of us who've seen what can happen, who've attended funerals and hugged crying mothers, who've watched the life flight helicopter fly away with our friends hoping against hope that they survive... it's up to us to let novice jumpers know that they don't know jack shit yet, and it's up to us to limit the caliber of weapon they can fly, at least until they've got some more jumps and education under their belts.

[airdweller 0]

The DZO can also tell someone that there not going to jump with a certain canopy. So if we hold the seller of a canopy responsible for some ones decision to jump a particular canopy, and blacklist them, should we also set up a blacklist of DZO's who lets person jump a canopy which is clearly above there ablility. I'm not sure.

The bottom line is we are responsible for our own actions in everything we do. It's just more apparent in skydiving.

P.S. As was mentioned in an earlier post. It really sucks to lose a friend you know under a fully functioning canopy. It really sucks bad.

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"From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant,
who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns

[skybytch 273]

I must apologize for my tone on my posts in this thread. I'm angry and very upset that yet another young jumper has died under a canopy that may have been too small for his ability, and I've let that affect what I'm saying here.

I strongly believe that something needs to change, that somehow we need to make it "cool" to jump a light wingloading for your first couple hundred jumps. I'm at a loss as to how to accomplish that.

I'll be stepping away from this thread and the one I started in Gen'l Skydiving until I've calmed down a bit.