Cross Picket Line ?

[VectorBoy 0]

You like nice Cars, like your car. What if the numbers proved best that the people that make and service your car should scrape the bottom of the gene pool for personel to see to your cars needs from the factory to the aftermarket? After all it doesn't take much to scan a bar scan on the side of a carton.

[akarunway 1]

i work heavy construction. i joined the union 2 yrs ago after working non union in the southeast for most of my life. non union slaved my ass of w/ no benefits or pension. Union has done me right. I agree there are some lazy motherfuckers out there but the majority of us work hard for our pay. I dare you to cross a construction picket line

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[akarunway 1]

one more. i bought a brand new dodge ram p/u truck in 99. paid cash. the fucker started to fall apart in 5k miles. got to looking around and found out " assembled in mexico". Thanks NAFTA

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[dropdeded 0]

I dare you to cross a construction picket line
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Im thinking you are directing your replies to someone else ??? I have been on a construction picket line. Oakland Ca. Roofers and Waterproofers Local 81,(I think its local 121 now), I dont cross picket lines. Have a nice day
dropdeded

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The Dude Abides.
-

[mouth 0]

I had my fill of unions and picket lines when I worked for Eastern Airlines.

Don't cross the line. Get it elsewehre or do without for a short time. Sad part is NOBODY wins when workers picket and strike. People loose mjobs, companies loose money, and unions sit and laugh because everyone is squirming.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[PhillyKev 0]

I won't cross. All you union bashers should think about a few things, think about what your job would be like now if it weren't for unions.

-80 hour weeks
-no sick time, no vacation time, no family leave act, no personal days, no long lunches, etc.
-unions are primarily responsible for why you can't be treated like a slave at work

Would I join a union? Probably not, I have the ability, intelligence and desire to make my way in a capitalistic environment. Some others may not.

My father was a carpenter and one particularly bad year for the construction trade, he didn't work for 6 months. He got food stamps for the first and last time in his life and was ashamed of it, but he had 5 kids to feed. Did the contruction companies that he worked for help out? No. Did the union? Yes!! He continued to receive health care for his kids, they helped him find another job, etc.

There's good and bad in most things in life. Very few things are one or the other. Those with such animosity toward unions probably don't have a real understanding of what they are or how they work.

[diverdriver 6]

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There's good and bad in most things in life. Very few things are one or the other. Those with such animosity toward unions probably don't have a real understanding of what they are or how they work.

Amen to that. Speaking as an elected union rep I can say it is no fun doing this job. I did it for the benefit of the people I represent and feel it is a matter of service. I got no pay for it. In fact, I shelled out more than it ever gave back to me. I've done my term and it will end in February. I have done many good things for the pilots I represent in terms of talking with the company when the contract was violated and I feel that my work in recent concessionary talks protected the futures of many at my company. Not all unions want more and more but they do want what is fair market for their workers and many times they don't even get that. While higher ups sick in luxury the grunt workers may barely get by. It is our right to organize in a stronger collection. The management team is a union in itself. It is a big group and the individual can be squashed rather easily without representation and a system for recourse.

I will never cross a picket line.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[jfields 0]

Kevin,

Unions definitely had major benefits to our country. They brought workplace safety to light, along with all sorts of issues relating to our working environments. Exactly the things you mentioned.

But now that those issues have been codified as laws, with recourse for violations, I think the unions have largely outlived their usefulness. However great unions were, like all political entities, after awhile the goal switches over to self-perpetuation.

Workers at a well-run company don't need unions. Workers at a poorly-run company can use their union to attempt to help straighten a company out. But those situations aren't generally what you see. You see unions bogging companies down without any willingness to find the middleground that can help preserve the long-term viability of the company (and the jobs it creates) while planning a path toward better employee care (conditions or compensation).

[turtlespeed 226]

It depends on if I agree with the cause of the strike. If it's piddly sh*t, for instance, the baseball strike that kept the world series from happening, damn right I'll cross it. I read somewhere that it's a dispute over about 10$ a week in dues for a union. If that's the case then, Hell yeah. If you get into a union, pay your damn dues or GTFO. Simple, cut and dry, no questions, and stop raising your and my grocery prices by your BS quibbling.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[diverdriver 6]

Quote

It depends on if I agree with the cause of the strike. If it's piddly sh*t, for instance, the baseball strike that kept the world series from happening, damn right I'll cross it. I read somewhere that it's a dispute over about 10$ a week in dues for a union. If that's the case then, Hell yeah. If you get into a union, pay your damn dues or GTFO. Simple, cut and dry, no questions, and stop raising your and my grocery prices by your BS quibbling.

BS quibbling? Someone who makes little to begin with might just need that 520 bucks for their kid to have clothes, food, and school books. And we are talking about California which has one of the highest cost of living rates in the US. So, just looking at a grocery store clerk making 15 bucks an hour and saying they are over paid is not right. What does it cost to live in that community? It just might be that they are still barely making it because of the area they are living in.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[lawrocket 3]

I used to be a member of UFCW. They didn't do shit for me other than ensure that I paid my 15 dollar per month dues for the right to make 15 cents more per hour, part time. In other words, thanks to the union wages, I made less than minimum wage. Thanks, guys!

Back in 1990, I got canned. The union didn't do shit for me. Shortly thereafter, they wanted to go on strike. So, I had everthing arranged to cross that line and work as a dirty scab. It didn't come out that way, but I gladly would have.

Now, I say cross that line. Fuck 'em. Maybe it's just because I got fucked over by them that I want to screw them back.

Of course, this whole thing is a reaction to other non-union stores kicking the union stores' asses. So, if you really want to hurt the evil stores, go shop at WalMart or Costco. That way, evil Albertsons and Ralphs and Vons will pay dearly. Maybe even go bankrupt.

At which time the striking union members will be out of work for good. Eastern Airlines, anybody?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[steve1 5]

I used to think I'd never cross a picket line, but now I think it depends on the situation. I was once a (union) plumber and pipe-fitter's apprentice. I've also worked in other trades on other construction jobs that were unionized. I can see the purpose of unions, but I also feel they are sometimes too strong. Many are run by a bunch of greedy people who care nothing about anything, or anyone, but themselves.

I got into the plumber's and pipe-fitter's union on my own merit. Often this is not the case. Usually it depends on who your relatives are. If your dad is in the trade, you are usually a shoe in to get in. When I got in there was close to 100 applicants (back in the early 80's). They only took four that year. I was the only one whose dad wasn't already in the union.

I worked on one job where the workers seemed to be running the show rather than the bosses. You'd see lot's of folks doing almost nothing all day, some smoking dope on their breaks, and you'd even find little forts where some workers would hide and drink beer on the job. The bosses were afraid to fire anyone because of fear of a walk out. The job had to be finished soon or suffer a huge fine (which was in the contract).

I recall attending some union meetings that truly reminded me of a Klu Klux Clan rally. The worst name anyone could think of was "Scab". Most were threatenly violence to anyone who would think of crossing the picket line.

Whenever it would come time to negotiate a new contract the huge salaries and benefits they were already making was not enough. They alway's demanded a shit load more or threaten to go on strike.

I know all this sound pretty negative, but I could tell plenty more stories similiar to this. This is a case where unions are just getting too strong in my opinion.

This past summer a neighbor of mine was having a hard time keeping his grocery store up and going because his workers were on strike and were trying their best to break him. He didn't have the money to pay the raises and benefits that his workers were demanding. I crossed this picket line at least once a week.......Steve1

[lawrocket 3]

Here's a fun statistic! Where do union dues go?

1996 Election Cycle? Well, we don't know how much of the union money went to things like health care for the union members or assisting the poor workers with feeding their families. Maybe I could have afforded that 15 dollars for a flu shot had my dues not gone to the union.

But, let's take a look at where 2,758,345 in low wage money went from the UFCW. $23,050 of it went to Republican candidates in 1996. Another $2,726,295 went to democratic candidates.

I wonder how much health insurance 2.75 million dollars could have bought for union employees in 1996. Instead, they chose to give this money to the wealthy and already established upper-crust, as opposed to the working man they claim to represent.

Actually, one should go to www.ufcw.org and take a look at the UFCW budget to find out how this protection money is spent. It might open your eyes.

That is, if this union actually published its budget, which it doesn't. Any guesses why????

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[diverdriver 6]

Doesn't publish our budget? Are you kidding? ALPA (airline pilot's association) is going to get hit hard by the new rules that the Bush admin is enacting on unions for reporting. The rules that were already in place had us printing an almost 300 page document. Now, it will be almost 10,000 pages and we can only submit it electronicly. How long was the latest published budget of one of the huge companies that now have top officials going to jail? Less than 10 pages?

Before you point the finger know the facts.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Kevin,

Unions definitely had major benefits to our country. They brought workplace safety to light, along with all sorts of issues relating to our working environments. Exactly the things you mentioned.

But now that those issues have been codified as laws, with recourse for violations, I think the unions have largely outlived their usefulness. However great unions were, like all political entities, after awhile the goal switches over to self-perpetuation.

Workers at a well-run company don't need unions. Workers at a poorly-run company can use their union to attempt to help straighten a company out. But those situations aren't generally what you see. You see unions bogging companies down without any willingness to find the middleground that can help preserve the long-term viability of the company (and the jobs it creates) while planning a path toward better employee care (conditions or compensation).

Yes, that is the case in some cases. But saying that unions did their job, got things changed, and can now go away is naive. I worked roofing and construction myself for awhile. I worked both union and non-union companies. The union companies had better trained employees, who were treated better, in safer conditions. The non-union companies employed quite a few illegal aliens, put them at unnecessary risk to save a few dollars, and treated you like an easily replaceable peon. Which you were, because they would just hire and shmoe off the street who was willing.

And I'm willing to bet most of the anti-union people are making decent wages and are treated well by their employers. So, they don't see a need for unions. But, the reason they make those wages, and are treated the way they are is because workers formed collective bargaining and stopped letting employers exploit them. Even if you're at a non-union job, part of the reason you get what you get is because your employer knows if conditions were crappy, there's a chance their employees would organize.

[lawrocket 3]

Chris:

I looked online all over, and including UFCW's website. UFCW did not post its budget, or even a pie chart stating where the money goes.

I suppose you are right. A union is a private company. But a nice little pie chart might be helpful to see where the union budget is going.

Businesses like Albertsons, where I used to work (I hate them too), make their money through the voluntary choices of the customers. When I worked for them, I had no choice but to pay my union dues. If my money is going someplace, I damned well want to know where it is going.

It's dangerous territory for you to be asking how long the budget of one of the huge companies that now have top officials going to jail is. Chances are that the budget was huge, just like that of a union. I don't want to compare a union to Global Crossing or Enron.

But, where does the money in a union go? That 2.75 million dollars the UFCW sent in 1996 to political candidates could have done a lot of good elsewhere.

Yeah, my experience with unions was that of getting screwed over. Perhaps that tempers my viewpoint somewhat. It was almost 15 years ago, and I'm still pissed about it. The only facts I know about first hand are those related to me. And I also know some people with similar experiences.

That union didn't protect me. The money taken from my checks was all for naught, in my eyes.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[miked10270 0]

OK,

Just to inject a little humour, a couple of links to sound clips...

1. Name the singer (not too hard) http://mr-19983.v-mirror.spb.ru/mp3/ussr_eng.mp3

2. The Salvation Army's mostest favourite songhttp://video.pbs.org:8080/ramgen/joehill/UPThePreacherAndTheSlave.rm?altplay=UPThePreacherAndTheSlave.rm

Both are worksafe (unless you work for a right-wing religious organisation)

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[AnnieB 0]

Depends on why they're striking. I generally ask what the strike is about and then base my decision on that.

In California, Unions often hire temp workers to walk their picket lines. So now I make sure to ask if the people picketing are actually employees or fill-ins. 8 out of 10 times they are not employed there...they are being paid to picket.

Doesn't make sense does it?

A sweet sound descends
Through blue skies and clouds above
Whispering my name

[jumper03 0]

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So now I make sure to ask if the people picketing are actually employees or fill-ins. 8 out of 10 times they are not employed there...they are being paid to picket.

So do the paid picketers have a union too? Wonder what they do if they go on strike?

Scars remind us that the past is real

[mouth 0]

Quote

Eastern Airlines, anybody?

Worked for them until about a month before all h*ll broke loose. I flew Senior on any aircraft from a DC 9 to an L-1011 and made 13,800 a year. Most of the people working under me had flown for years and wouldn't accept the responsibility for the aircraft because they felt the $0.80 more an hour was not worth the trouble. They made twice what I made a year for doing less work simply because they were on the A pay scale while all of us younger people were on the B pay scale. We had to fly senior to be able to afford to live.

The unions didn't hurt us but they didn't help us as younger workers either. Their goal was more trying to keep things going for those who had been with the company so long. Many of the "scabs" were the younger flight attendants who had nothing to fall back on because they were paid so little they really didn't have a choice if they wanted to survive.

I honestly didn't mind paying my dues along with everyone else but I sorta felt like if you could have 2 pay scales that you agreed upon then you should have had 2 union dues scales too. Eastern Airlines is not a very good example anyway simply because Lorenzo transferred most of the assets from EAL to Continential and replaced them with CAL older inventory. Unions or not EAL would have still crashed and burned.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[indyz 1]

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Businesses like Albertsons, where I used to work (I hate them too), make their money through the voluntary choices of the customers. When I worked for them, I had no choice but to pay my union dues. If my money is going someplace, I damned well want to know where it is going.

Heh. When I was 16 and wanting to go on a class trip to Germany I took a job at Jewel-Osco (another division of the Albertsons grocery megacorp) to help get the money together. As a part time employee who was forced to unionize, I got totally screwed. There was exactly zero benefit for me, but I had to pay the dues anyway. Quit that job as soon as I had the trip paid for.

[GARYC24 3]

I grew up in Southern Illinois. My relatives were all coal miners..alot of wildcat strikes..ya didn't cross them picket lines! People got beat up when they did..and people went to jail and people went to the hospital.
But, I would go to a grocery store if i needed to and cross the picket line..but I don't need to this week.I'm single and have access to free pizza! hahahahaahah..everything else I can get at the liquor store!

[Gawain 0]

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The slogan can go like this: shitty cars, apethetic employees but great car prices. Yes thats kind of K-mart, wal-mart.

And it's also GM. The most inefficient auto maker in the world. These qualitative issues didn't just touch US workers either. The GM model has affected Saab, Vauxhaul, nearly destroyed Lotus. I can only hope our friends down-under showed some resistence at Holden.

K-Mart is in chp 11.

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and later when its time to repair your lemon do you want the low wage zombie or the knowledgeable mechanic?

You're missing my point. I'm not disputing you on this. But you're talking mechanics, skilled labor. Guys that typically work, full time, in a hazardous environment (many of which probably don't get the same benefits as these UFCW part-timers).

Cashiers and baggers and shelf stockers are not worth $20/hour. There isn't an enterprise in the world where you can just walk in and make that kind of money for that kind of job.

Quote

I think it had more to do with the very sophisticated capabilties of automation, also in terms of duty cycle and quality control. Business numbers didn't make that happen any more than a car is designed by a machine. Business numbers again hey you are not an MBA are you?

When the auto makers started placing robots in parts of their assemply line, they didn't do just for kicks. I guarantee you a team from the maker of those robots showed the auto executives a plain and simple ROI with guarantees of servicability and precision (thus justifying and enabling a capital sale). They didn't wedge "Joe the Welder" job just to screw Joe. They saw, "Spend $XX-Mil over timeline-Y, re-tool these plants for $Z-Mil and I can increase output by W, which increases sales by S, reduces overhead by O and increases profits by P over said timeline-Y. No MBA needed there.

I am not a big fan of these executives either, but I am also not blind to their obligation: To keep the business runnng and ensure a good investment for the stockholders (who provide the money to continue to run the business). While I wish I saw more compassion in some instances from these guys, I'm also a shareholder of several large companies, known to be a reliable investment. 9/11 changed all that, and as these companies adjust, so must these unions. In this case, UFCW is asking for too much, in an area where the company doesn't really need to respond, if it chooses to ride it out.

So, if I'm Steve Burd, here are my pressure points:

Loss, $800M FY02
Stock, down 50+% since 1/01
Unions, want more.

Which one is going to be any executive's first priority? Stock price. How does one do that, by not outspending revenues, which means these UFCW is not going to get everything, if anything it wants.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jfields 0]

Kevin,

I didn't say they were completely obsolete, but their importance and benefit have both diminished.

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I worked both union and non-union companies. The union companies had better trained employees, who were treated better, in safer conditions. The non-union companies employed quite a few illegal aliens, put them at unnecessary risk to save a few dollars, and treated you like an easily replaceable peon.

Is that difference really due to the union, or to the quality of the company as a whole? I wouldn't trust a union to watch my back at a company that didn't care about safety. I wouldn't work at a place like that, union or no union. At a good company, the union isn't necessary because the company itself is concerned for the welfare of the employees. That doesn't involve giving unreasonable salaries, or encouraging an attitude of accepted malingering through union interference.

I think the marketplace will punish the bad companies, through retention problems, poor quality, low efficiency, low customer satisfaction and an inability to compete. The unions can only delay the inevitable. Rather than using the union as a crutch, why not just get a job at a better company?

I don't hate unions. I just see them kind of like an appendix. It is a vestigal organ that hasn't completely gone away just in case it turns out that we've been going down the wrong evolutionary path. If it doesn't bother you, don't do anything, but if it gives the slightest bit of problem, just operate and remove it.

[lawrocket 3]

Your story seems to reflect what I have noticed. Unions tend mainly to help those who are already established to the detriment of those who are just starting out. It seems to me that those just starting out need more protection than those who are established.

The established have a choice - to strike or not to strike. The non-established have no choice - work and get paid or languish. Then, as scabs, they will be derided forever.

My wife is hotter than your wife.