PhillyKev 0 #76 October 23, 2003 I just don't see how punishing the parents will reward the children. I'm sure you know someone who's been raised by abusive parents, or under achieving parents, etc. and has risen above that to be a better person, and better citizen than there parents were. I sure do. I think concentrating on the effort of enabling children to rise above their hardships is much more effective than increasing the hardship of their parents which will in effect trickle down to them. It's the basic difference between positive and negative reinforcement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #77 October 23, 2003 QuoteYou know, politicians are the same regardless of nationality & colour... "Vote for ME and get free money!" "The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money." - Alexis de Tocqueville -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #78 October 23, 2003 QuoteI just don't see how punishing the parents will reward the children. I'm sure you know someone who's been raised by abusive parents, or under achieving parents, etc. and has risen above that to be a better person, and better citizen than there parents were. I sure do. I think concentrating on the effort of enabling children to rise above their hardships is much more effective than increasing the hardship of their parents which will in effect trickle down to them. It's the basic difference between positive and negative reinforcement. No, you misunderstand me. More and better rewards for those willing to work for it. Not punishment for those that are not. Only there would be a punishment that would be percieved. If you are used to getting somethng for nothing, then it would seem like a punishment to you that you aren't getting the same as your niebor or peer.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #79 October 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteYou know, politicians are the same regardless of nationality & colour... "Vote for ME and get free money!" "The American Republic will endure, until politicians realize they can bribe the people with their own money." - Alexis de Tocqueville "America has the BEST politicians money CAN buy" __________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #80 October 23, 2003 QuoteNo, you misunderstand me. More and better rewards for those willing to work for it. Not punishment for those that are not. Only there would be a punishment that would be percieved. If you are used to getting somethng for nothing, then it would seem like a punishment to you that you aren't getting the same as your niebor or peer. Gotcha....just don't think that would work. I remember reading that the human personality is pretty much static at around age 30. In other words, you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You're relying on altering the behavior of the parents through incentives, I don't think it would do much good. I think society needs to take on the burden of showing kids that they don't need to live in the world that they do and there is opportunity for them if they apply themselves. Their parents aren't going to teach them that because they don't believe it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #81 October 23, 2003 So when is it that we hold the individuals responsible for their own actions?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #82 October 23, 2003 QuoteI think society needs to take on the burden of showing kids that they don't need to live in the world that they do and there is opportunity for them if they apply themselves. Their parents aren't going to teach them that because they don't believe it. There's also the school culture of homework sucks, fuck school, even in the best schools. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #83 October 23, 2003 QuoteSo when is it that we hold the individuals responsible for their own actions? I see these as two different subjects. Holding parents responsible for poor parenting skills will do nothing to change the position in society of their children. Nothing we do to the parents will make an impact. But if we concentrate on the next generation, the future will be brighter for everyone. Unfortunately, there's no quick fix. But we have to look beyond blame and responsibility and concentrate on results if we really want things to change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #84 October 23, 2003 QuoteSo when is it that we hold the individuals responsible for their own actions? I could give you a lawyer's response to that one... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #85 October 23, 2003 QuoteQuoteSo when is it that we hold the individuals responsible for their own actions? I could give you a lawyer's response to that one... And that would be? Kev: No there is no quick fix, but if I am investing in my country, (Taxes) I want a return(peace and security), if I work for my money, then, I surely think that it should not be given away. If there are those out there that want to work for it, i have no problem with them earning it. I am not a charity, and will always oppose any gov't entity that wishes to force me to be one.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #86 October 23, 2003 If they want reparations, they should go to the folks that first sold them... not anyone else. Slavery was an accepted practice in the western world until the 1800's... once slavery was officially abolished in this country, those of african decent were offered an opportunity to return to their homelands (the creation of Liberia)... most of them stayed here... no reparations from this side of the pond are owed, IMO. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #87 October 23, 2003 QuoteI am not a charity, and will always oppose any gov't entity that wishes to force me to be one. Fair enough. But you'll have to live with the effect of another generation being raised in the same conditions. Or at least your children will. I think taxes used to educate and elevate the children of today to be a worthwhile investement in society to help increase the peace and secuirty of tomorrow, not charity. I think it's a much better use for it than, say, incarcerating the highest percentage of citizens of any modernized nation due to draconian drug laws(prepare for juanesky's accusations of my drug abuse). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #88 October 23, 2003 QuoteIf they want reparations, they should go to the folks that first sold them... not anyone else. Slavery was an accepted practice in the western world until the 1800's... once slavery was officially abolished in this country, those of african decent were offered an opportunity to return to their homelands (the creation of Liberia)... most of them stayed here... no reparations from this side of the pond are owed, IMO. J Look at it from a lawyers point of view though - I know it's creepy, but try it - Would you invest time and money into trying to get 30% of something that is possible, however improbable it might be, or something that is completely implausable?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #89 October 23, 2003 Quoteonce slavery was officially abolished in this country, those of african decent were offered an opportunity to return to their homelands (the creation of Liberia) Gee..what a great offer. Might want to read up on the history of what it was like for those that did go to Liberia. http://www.friendsofyekepa.org/LibHistory.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #90 October 23, 2003 QuoteBut, I don't think there should be a monetary handout to the descendants of slaves. Rather we should work as a society to elliminate the cultural bias that exists. Elimination of the Affirmative Action program would be a good start. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #91 October 23, 2003 My father had a saying. He was referring to abusive parents, or just plain old leeches on society. It was, "shit heads perpetuate shit heads". Some effort needs to be made to break the cycles of society. But we can't rely on the "shit heads" to break it themselves. We need to show the future "shit heads" that they can be different, and have a chance. By leaving the "shit heads" on their own, and not providing any kind of assistance to better themselves, they'll just perpetuate and not progress. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #92 October 23, 2003 Reads to me like it started off just fine... and the opportunity was squandered... still, no reparations. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zlew 0 #93 October 23, 2003 Might wanna read the links you post. I read the page... They went over, started their country with help from US and other $. It looks like the people who lived there before the freed slaves moved back were the ones who had the problems man....not the slaves. Forced Labor.... Hey, isn't that kinda like Slavery? from your clicky: <> Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #94 October 23, 2003 QuoteSome effort needs to be made to break the cycles of society. But we can't rely on the "shit heads" to break it themselves. I don't care about the "shit heads", let 'em suffer, let 'em starve, let 'em freeze. I just don't care. On the other hand, those who come from a less than perfect background and have the will, intensity, and desire to succeed, they'll do so on their own, without any help from racist/sexist programs such as affirmative action. QuoteWe need to show the future "shit heads" that they can be different, and have a chance. I agree with this statement. I do not however, agree with the idea of government intervention to do it. Government intervention diminishes the significance of the accomplishment. Bob didn't get the job because he's good, or because he earned it. Bob got the job because he's black. That's bullshit. I might be more qualified for the job, but passed over. Bob will always wonder, did I get the job because I'm good, or did I get the job because I'm black. There will certainly be talk around the water cooler that Bob's new job was a government hand out. Nobody wins. QuoteBy leaving the "shit heads" on their own, and not providing any kind of assistance to better themselves, they'll just perpetuate and not progress. I'm all for providing assistance. Need more money for schools? I'm there. Need more money for after school programs? Count me in. Need money, and time, to help clean up a neighborhood? Been there, done that, do that. Need the government to hold a slot for you because your black? No way. That's discrimination and it's bullshit. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #95 October 24, 2003 I think the British should pay reparations for kicking out all the pilgrims. Look at the mess that they created! nathanielMy advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #96 October 24, 2003 QuoteI think taxes used to educate and elevate the children of today to be a worthwhile investement in society to help increase the peace and secuirty of tomorrow, not charity. Yup. Not everyone is born with an equal chance, and not everyone is born with equal equipment. Otherwise folks would be saying we can all be members of Arizona Airspeed if we work hard enough. That's bullshit. You don't make everyone equal by helping children. But if you get the kids a chance at an even start, then more will break the cycle their parents have been in. Not every kid has the personal equipment to overcome poverty, marginal teaching, little family support for education, and no role models. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #97 October 24, 2003 It's nothing but Jesse Jackson's racial shakedown tactics writ large; e.g., give us what we want or we'll burn your cities down. The only reason some goofballs are considering this is because of the unending "white guilt" of bleeding-heart liberalism and political correctness gone absolutely bugfuck. My great-grandfather came to America from Germany in 1898. My family lived in the North, not the South. No one is going to take money from me for "reparations" - if they try, they'll get my answer with bullets. mh"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #98 October 24, 2003 Ok, so I am back in the debate after a long night sleep and I am trying to catch up. I think a couple good points were made, however, I think some people don't really see what is going on. Head sart Programs: _ Com'on are you serious? American schools have been Dumbed down soo much it is stupid (pun!!!). Entitlesments are the problem in this society. Everyone thinks they are entitled to something. A back up plan for when they fail. That is called SOCIALISM. America was founded as a republic, a capitalistic society. Do you know what that means???? It is like Darwinism: Survival of the fittest. America is a place of opportunity, however, if you choose to squander that opportunity, you starve and you die. So, make good choices, work hard and you too can live the dream. The thing is the government is not resposible for your bad decisions. It kills me that we have these social programs, IMO these programs cause laziness. People realize that they don't have to try or workhard, because Uncle Sam will support them if they fail. That is crap... If that is what you want fine, move to Canada or Western Europe. The idea of what America should be was much different that what it is. Our found Fathers must be rolling in their graves seeing where this country is going. We left Europe to get away from what is begining to happen here in the US. It is a sad state of affairs.... Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #99 October 24, 2003 Well, capitalism was at work in the creation of the public school system. Pure capitalism wouldn't work, just like pure socialism wouldn't. There have to be some societal infrastructures in place, that is what defines a society. Why is the public education system the way it is? Because ultra-right-wing capitalists wanted it that way: The Educational System Was Designed to Keep Us Uneducated and Docile Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #100 October 24, 2003 Have you ever seen Good WIll Hunting? Well as he says The education you payed $150,000 for at Harvard you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the local library. If you want to succeed you can. If you don't, you won't. Sad but true. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
