PD Storm steering lines to long ?

[Venom1986 0]

Hello,
I´ve made a canopy course. The first task was to find the stall point. So i can arch my body to maximum and pull the steering lines so deep i can behind me and the canopy can´t stall. At the next jump I should show when the steering lines are stretched.
After that and looking my landings the instructor sad i should short them 8cm (3,15 inch) for landings without wind with no problems.
In the manual of the storm i can find the notice don´t short them more than 5 cm (2 inch).
What do you think are 8 cm okay ?

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/StormCFStormFAQFlightCharacteristics.PDF

Greets
Lars

[FrancoR 0]

NO, the manual say no more than 2 inches for a reason. Also in case you do shorten them to much you will also get problem in case you go to front risers with the toggles in your hand.
You may also want to ask PD, they have excelent customer service and will give you an answer if there is a possibility so safely shorten them.

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[piisfish 140]

your arms are too short

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[davelepka 4]

Start with 2" and see if that helps. If you still cannot stall it, then try another 2". If it stalls too soon, let them out an inch.

PD says 2" so you don't change them too much at once. Different sized people, different sized harness, and different length risers will move the stall point around, each jumper needs to fine tune it. They just don't want you changing to too much at once. Work in little steps and 'sneak up' on the right setting for you.

Also, remember that to stall your canopy you want to be able to hold the deepest brakes possible for a few seconds before it stalls. You don't want it so as soon as you hit full arms extension the canopy stalls, that's how you get hurt on landing. It should be toggles ALL the way down, 3 or 4 second delay, then the canopy should stall. Anything faster than that is asking for trouble.

[slotperfect 7]

I have two Storm 190s - one is my work canopy and the other is in my spare rig. I load them at about 1.4 .

They are fairly new to me, and thus far I have only been shooting straight in or demo accuracy type approaches since I plan on using one of them for doing demos.

My brakes are set at the PD factory setting on both canopies. As a result, I have about 7" of slack before I see any tail deflection. For me that is perfect for air work, and will allow enough slack so the canopy doesn't hobble when I start doing front riser approaches.

Just before I enter the pattern I take one wrap. That puts the sweet spot and finish where it needs to be for the type of approach I am doing at the moment.

Arrive Safely

John

[btvr 0]

I have a tri 210 (Aerodyne) I took a canopy course too and I had to stall it. I could not stall the tri with the lines as is. So the instuctor said to just wrap the lines around my fists a couple times and that worked. Just do that and you won't need to shorten them. With mine the way it is I don't have to worry about stalling the canopy during the flare. Trust what PD recommends..They built it and they know best!!

[DocPop 1]

Quote

I have a tri 210 (Aerodyne) I took a canopy course too and I had to stall it. I could not stall the tri with the lines as is. So the instuctor said to just wrap the lines around my fists a couple times and that worked. Just do that and you won't need to shorten them. With mine the way it is I don't have to worry about stalling the canopy during the flare. Trust what PD recommends..They built it and they know best!!

PD builds canopies with a set of assumptions built in. They tune their canopies for an "average" jumper using "average" length risers and a correctly sized harness (whatever "average" is in this context) - see davelepka's post above.

It seems to me that having to take a couple of wraps for landing means that something is wrong that could be improved by shortening the brake lines to "tune" them to you.

Unless you have a reason to like the lines really long in flight, why risk forgetting to take the wraps for landing?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[dragon2 2]

1) you don't need (or even want) your canopy to stall for landing
2) you want the canopy lines long enough so that using one or both frontrisers doesn't deflect the tail.

If you want to shorten your brakelines, do so only a few cm at a time, try it out and flare a couple times before your actual landing flare. And leave yourself room for frontriser use: even if you don't use them for landing you may want to use them up high, or to prevent getting blown backards a lot someday.

If you want to determine if your brakes really are too long, start by looking up at your canopy while in full flight. In full flight there should be a bow in your brakelines.
Now go to full brakes ("a quick flare"), then let the brakes up quickly and immediately grab both frontrisers, pull them down as fast as you can, keep them there.
Look up. The tail shouldn't be deflected by the brakelines now, but you don't need a lot of slack (a big bow) here either.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Hello,
I´ve made a canopy course. The first task was to find the stall point. So i can arch my body to maximum and pull the steering lines so deep i can behind me and the canopy can´t stall. At the next jump I should show when the steering lines are stretched.
After that and looking my landings the instructor sad i should short them 8cm (3,15 inch) for landings without wind with no problems.
In the manual of the storm i can find the notice don´t short them more than 5 cm (2 inch).
What do you think are 8 cm okay ?

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/StormCFStormFAQFlightCharacteristics.PDF

Greets
Lars

Before you go shortening your brakes more than is recommended by PD, I suggest you spend a little time reading up on DZ.com here on how the Storm typically flies for an assortment of different people.

I've jumped some of the first pre production Storms in different sizes, like you, I have not been able to get a Storm to completely stall or bow tie on itself. However, some people say they are able to do it and have photo proof of it. I cannot say if they have shortened the brakes excessively ,taken wraps or simply are able to do it with their specific canopy.

What I can say is that the Storm is a canopy that flies and lands a bit different than most other canopies in that the sweet spot and the the actual shut down point are significantly deeper than what most people are accustomed to. People have to remember that this canopy started off as a CF canopy and as such, it can fly rock solid stable while in 3/4 to full brakes with no buffeting or bucking.


Typically most people who jump the Storm the first several times have horrible landings and complain of no flare power or the inability to get lift from it at the bottom end of the flare. If you watch those same people land, what you will find is that they are not completing their flare all the way to begin with and they are failing to even reach the sweet spot where the canopy planes out before they touch the ground.

The thing that peopple need to keep in mind when flying/demoing this canopy is that it is quite different from what they expect. First off, the recovery arch is VERY quick as it has a very flat glide which is fantastic if you're ever long. However, it does make setting up and turning onto final a bit challenging until you figure out the characteristics of the canopy.

Second, the flare point is very deep or I should say deeper than most people are acustomed to. A majority of skydivers are in the habit of not following through with their flare all the way and it affects the way they land or in realistic terms,crash on landing. On the Storm the point where the canopy planes out to level flight is right around the 50% point or nipple level of the flare. To come to a complete stop the flare must be followed through all the way to full arms extension. The Storm has a tremendous amount of bottom end flare, if you know how to flare the canopy correctly. People may erroroneously think that it has no bottom end because they are expecting the canopy and their momentum to come to a stop when the canopy is actually in a plane out.

Once people learn to finish their flare deeper than they are used to they will find that the Storm is capable of popping them back up in the air. The Storm is also very stable in deep brakes which means it can be sunk in, much like an accuracy canopy if the jumper chooses to do so. If you check out the PD blog, there are pictures of the Storm on landing and in deep brakes to give you an idea of how deep the flare point is. Pictures of the Storm in flight and on landing can be seen

HERE, HERE and HERE


The key things in the photos to look at is where the toggles are and the deflection of the tail in relation to them in the flare stroke.


I have not seen your landings so I cannot say definitively what your specific issue is. However, having a lot of time under this canopy and having watched a lot of other people under this canopy, I think what I have posted is probably the issue you are dealing with and probably don't need to shorten your brake lines any more than PD recommends or if at all. The other thing to keep in mind is if you over shorten them now, while the lines are new, it may fly like you want it to, but over time the lines will get even shorter through use and you will have another set of problems to deal with later.

Hopefully this gives you a bit more info to work with and helps you determine what is the best course of action for your specific situation.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[btvr 0]

Unless you have a reason to like the lines really long in flight, why risk forgetting to take the wraps for landing?

You are right but I wasn't clear.. For me my lines are fine for landing as is. I just needed to wrap them in order to stall it.

[Venom1986 0]

Quote

Quote

Hello,
I´ve made a canopy course. The first task was to find the stall point. So i can arch my body to maximum and pull the steering lines so deep i can behind me and the canopy can´t stall. At the next jump I should show when the steering lines are stretched.
After that and looking my landings the instructor sad i should short them 8cm (3,15 inch) for landings without wind with no problems.
In the manual of the storm i can find the notice don´t short them more than 5 cm (2 inch).
What do you think are 8 cm okay ?

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/StormCFStormFAQFlightCharacteristics.PDF

Greets
Lars

Before you go shortening your brakes more than is recommended by PD, I suggest you spend a little time reading up on DZ.com here on how the Storm typically flies for an assortment of different people.

I've jumped some of the first pre production Storms in different sizes, like you, I have not been able to get a Storm to completely stall or bow tie on itself. However, some people say they are able to do it and have photo proof of it. I cannot say if they have shortened the brakes excessively ,taken wraps or simply are able to do it with their specific canopy.

What I can say is that the Storm is a canopy that flies and lands a bit different than most other canopies in that the sweet spot and the the actual shut down point are significantly deeper than what most people are accustomed to. People have to remember that this canopy started off as a CF canopy and as such, it can fly rock solid stable while in 3/4 to full brakes with no buffeting or bucking.


Typically most people who jump the Storm the first several times have horrible landings and complain of no flare power or the inability to get lift from it at the bottom end of the flare. If you watch those same people land, what you will find is that they are not completing their flare all the way to begin with and they are failing to even reach the sweet spot where the canopy planes out before they touch the ground.

The thing that peopple need to keep in mind when flying/demoing this canopy is that it is quite different from what they expect. First off, the recovery arch is VERY quick as it has a very flat glide which is fantastic if you're ever long. However, it does make setting up and turning onto final a bit challenging until you figure out the characteristics of the canopy.

Second, the flare point is very deep or I should say deeper than most people are acustomed to. A majority of skydivers are in the habit of not following through with their flare all the way and it affects the way they land or in realistic terms,crash on landing. On the Storm the point where the canopy planes out to level flight is right around the 50% point or nipple level of the flare. To come to a complete stop the flare must be followed through all the way to full arms extension. The Storm has a tremendous amount of bottom end flare, if you know how to flare the canopy correctly. People may erroroneously think that it has no bottom end because they are expecting the canopy and their momentum to come to a stop when the canopy is actually in a plane out.

Once people learn to finish their flare deeper than they are used to they will find that the Storm is capable of popping them back up in the air. The Storm is also very stable in deep brakes which means it can be sunk in, much like an accuracy canopy if the jumper chooses to do so. If you check out the PD blog, there are pictures of the Storm on landing and in deep brakes to give you an idea of how deep the flare point is. Pictures of the Storm in flight and on landing can be seen

HERE, HERE and HERE


The key things in the photos to look at is where the toggles are and the deflection of the tail in relation to them in the flare stroke.


I have not seen your landings so I cannot say definitively what your specific issue is. However, having a lot of time under this canopy and having watched a lot of other people under this canopy, I think what I have posted is probably the issue you are dealing with and probably don't need to shorten your brake lines any more than PD recommends or if at all. The other thing to keep in mind is if you over shorten them now, while the lines are new, it may fly like you want it to, but over time the lines will get even shorter through use and you will have another set of problems to deal with later.

Hopefully this gives you a bit more info to work with and helps you determine what is the best course of action for your specific situation.

Hello thank you for the great info
When I land my storm I´ve the Arms fully straight at my hips at the end of flare.
The canopy instructor from my course says that the Storm can more when he look at the tail of the canopy and my arm position (Much Wind at landings) and says that I become problems by zero wind to full flare the canopy and I should short them 8 cm.

[Venom1986 0]

I've short the lines now. Only 4 cm and the storm fly now very well :) The flare is now powerful and frontriser turns are no problem no deflections. And I'm not able to stall the storm as LouDiamond said.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I've short the lines now. Only 4 cm and the storm fly now very well :) The flare is now powerful and frontriser turns are no problem no deflections. And I'm not able to stall the storm as LouDiamond said.

Great news, now be safe and have fun under your Storm.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[DSE 5]

Quote

Quote

Hello,
I´ve made a canopy course. The first task was to find the stall point. So i can arch my body to maximum and pull the steering lines so deep i can behind me and the canopy can´t stall. At the next jump I should show when the steering lines are stretched.
After that and looking my landings the instructor sad i should short them 8cm (3,15 inch) for landings without wind with no problems.
In the manual of the storm i can find the notice don´t short them more than 5 cm (2 inch).
What do you think are 8 cm okay ?

http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/StormCFStormFAQFlightCharacteristics.PDF

Greets
Lars

Before you go shortening your brakes more than is recommended by PD, I suggest you spend a little time reading up on DZ.com here on how the Storm typically flies for an assortment of different people.

I've jumped some of the first pre production Storms in different sizes, like you, I have not been able to get a Storm to completely stall or bow tie on itself. However, some people say they are able to do it and have photo proof of it. I cannot say if they have shortened the brakes excessively ,taken wraps or simply are able to do it with their specific canopy.

What I can say is that the Storm is a canopy that flies and lands a bit different than most other canopies in that the sweet spot and the the actual shut down point are significantly deeper than what most people are accustomed to. People have to remember that this canopy started off as a CF canopy and as such, it can fly rock solid stable while in 3/4 to full brakes with no buffeting or bucking.


Typically most people who jump the Storm the first several times have horrible landings and complain of no flare power or the inability to get lift from it at the bottom end of the flare. If you watch those same people land, what you will find is that they are not completing their flare all the way to begin with and they are failing to even reach the sweet spot where the canopy planes out before they touch the ground.

The thing that peopple need to keep in mind when flying/demoing this canopy is that it is quite different from what they expect. First off, the recovery arch is VERY quick as it has a very flat glide which is fantastic if you're ever long. However, it does make setting up and turning onto final a bit challenging until you figure out the characteristics of the canopy.

Second, the flare point is very deep or I should say deeper than most people are acustomed to. A majority of skydivers are in the habit of not following through with their flare all the way and it affects the way they land or in realistic terms,crash on landing. On the Storm the point where the canopy planes out to level flight is right around the 50% point or nipple level of the flare. To come to a complete stop the flare must be followed through all the way to full arms extension. The Storm has a tremendous amount of bottom end flare, if you know how to flare the canopy correctly. People may erroroneously think that it has no bottom end because they are expecting the canopy and their momentum to come to a stop when the canopy is actually in a plane out.

Once people learn to finish their flare deeper than they are used to they will find that the Storm is capable of popping them back up in the air. The Storm is also very stable in deep brakes which means it can be sunk in, much like an accuracy canopy if the jumper chooses to do so. If you check out the PD blog, there are pictures of the Storm on landing and in deep brakes to give you an idea of how deep the flare point is. Pictures of the Storm in flight and on landing can be seen

HERE, HERE and HERE


The key things in the photos to look at is where the toggles are and the deflection of the tail in relation to them in the flare stroke.


I have not seen your landings so I cannot say definitively what your specific issue is. However, having a lot of time under this canopy and having watched a lot of other people under this canopy, I think what I have posted is probably the issue you are dealing with and probably don't need to shorten your brake lines any more than PD recommends or if at all. The other thing to keep in mind is if you over shorten them now, while the lines are new, it may fly like you want it to, but over time the lines will get even shorter through use and you will have another set of problems to deal with later.

Hopefully this gives you a bit more info to work with and helps you determine what is the best course of action for your specific situation.

Perhaps the best description of how to best pilot the Storm that I've heard. Many WS students jump my Storms and stall them on approach like this guy who normally jumps a Katana. He nearly stalls it early, holds it, and then doesn't complete the flare.
As Scott says, once you become familiar with the characteristics of the Storm, you'll love it. I had to shorten my brake lines too, but not by much. PD makes their brakelines fairly conservative out of the box, and I think that may throw some folks that are used to a lazy flare.