A Drop of Politics Amidst the...

[Gawain 0]

...fires in California and Colorado, Rain in the NW, Funky Weather in Virginia, religious skydivers, ad infinitum...

There is always, room for politics!

Democratic Senator and former Governor of Georgia, Zell Miller stated, "I'm going to vote for George Bush."

Miller is a conservative Democrat for sure, no argument there. Many of his philosophical views are in a direct conflict with DNC on its current issues. However, he has stayed with the party and successfully carried its core message in his political career.

His interview was on Fox News, so you anti-Murdoch folks go ahead and flame away, but to have such a dominant Southern Democrat walk away, sour from the elitist northern liberal front, I think, bodes bad times for the party down the road. I think I'll get his book, from the sound of it, he names names. The current leadership will not heed his call.

Edit to add the link: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,101633,00.html

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Now, for those facing the fires, lost to the fire, my heart to you. When I return to California next week, if I can lend a hand, please PM me.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Shark 0]

Interesting, but nobody will reply to your post since they don't agree with your political views. If they did, it would have that bandwagoning effect that is common between a lot of threads. One good troll thread and everyone jumps in with the same opinion, then blasts all that counter that view, regardless if of political leanings.

[Gawain 0]

The way I see it, I figure some are just scratching their heads wondering how they could respond.

So many here know my political leanings, and I'll go on a limb to say that even those that disagree with me politically would agree that I keep it civil 98% of the time.

I've even corrected myself when I've been wrong.

But in this case, Zell Miller is right. As he's retiring in January though he can show his cards, because he is a purist, and I respect that. The "naive nine" - as he calls them - are there to serve at the leisure of the Clintons, another clan within the party that Miller has an equally strong opinion about.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Muenkel 0]

Max,

You know we see things from the same political view.

My .02:

Presently it appears that Gov. Dean is the frontrunner for the Democratic nomination. Gov. Dean's record proves he is very far left and I think this is pissing off a lot of moderate democrats. A lot can happen between now and the convention, so I make no predictions. I personally know many moderate democrats who are so frustrated with their party...and have been for awhile...that they absolutely plan on voting for GWB, unless the DNC can pull a formidable candidate out of their ass real soon.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[mikkey 0]

not quite sure what your angle is...

Looking in from the outside I would think there is a big change of Bush jnr. following in his fathers footsteps as a “one termer”.
"It is the economy stupid" and from what I read the economy is not that flash in the US (especially jobs)…. Plus the mess in Iraq does not help – including questions of credibility (“WMD’s presenting clear and present danger”).

The whole thing depends on whom the democrats put up against him. But then again, If I remember correctly, in 1991 Clinton had big problems because he was seen as too young/in-experienced and “promiscuous”, which normally does not sit well with the “family values” crowd. But he still won because the US economy was bad and Bush’s credibility was doubtful (“read my lips – no more taxes”).

My bet is that Bush is gone by the end of next year, unless the US economy improves (i.e. jobs) and the situation in Iraq has improved dramatically (minimal number of troops deployed and no daily body count). But who knows – things change quickly in politics – not just in the US.

One thing I find amusing is the hate towards Clinton that is always expressed by the right wing club in this forum. The only criticism from American friends I heard was that he was a) a womaniser (and lied about it) b) in some peoples opinion cut defence spending too much. I visited the US quite a few times in the 90’s and it is my clear impression that the US had never a better economy, jobs and wealth improvement for all then during the Clinton years. Plus the relations with all of America’s allies were never better. But that is just my subjective impression.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Shark 0]

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...unless the DNC can pull a formidable candidate out of their ass real soon.

Al S. Sharpton

[Muenkel 0]

It's not that we hated President Clinton. It's that we couldn't trust him.

One example: Whitewater investigation; documents missing and shredded.

Now, the leak from the White House in regard to the revealing of the CIA agent. All documents handed over in a timely manner.

Outgoing Clinton administration: Trashes White House and all their computers.

Bush's reaction: Just fix it all, don't make a big deal and let's get down to business.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[mikkey 0]

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One example: Whitewater investigation; documents missing and shredded.

I never studied whitewater in detail, but if I remember correctly the Clintons were fully exonerated. The “shredding” of evidence I can’t remember – sure about that i.e. any proof?

Edit: I remember the enormous amount of resources spent on trying to "nail" Clinton for something and nothing came out of it - except Monica. K. Starr was not supposed to investigate Clinton's sex live. He was supposed to investigate Whitewater and could not come up with anything, so he turned to P. Jones and Monica....

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Outgoing Clinton administration: Trashes White House and all their computers.

Now this is what I was talking about. Everybody knows that this is not true. It was made up by some "Clinton haters" and shot down soon after it was thrown around in the media for a while (Fox loved it...).

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It's that we couldn't trust him.

Yes I would agree that Bill seems to like to "bend" the truth. However, what is worse: Lying about shagging the Intern or lying about the reason for going to war?
By the way, show me a politician you can fully trust....

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Gawain 0]

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not quite sure what your angle is...

Well, some of these stories may not be getting wide coverage in Australia, but Zell Miller has been a highly influencial memeber of the Democratic party in the southeast US when he was the Governor of Georgia. He's since been in the Senate in the US Congress.

His reference to the naive-nine is to the nine Democratic candidates running for nomination to be elected President in November 2004.

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Looking in from the outside ... ..."It is the economy stupid" and from what I read the economy is not that flash in the US (especially jobs)

Reminiscent of 1992...

The last reports on the US economy for 3Q03 are green arrows pointing up all around (technically speaking). Jobs are a lagging indicator and now that the Fed has pretty much let it be known that interest rates will not be adjusted upward anytime soon. I've seen speculation that corrected GDP figures for the 3rd quarter will reflect growth well in excess of 5%. If that's the case, then "it's not the economy".

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Plus the mess in Iraq does not help

I didn't start this thread to ring in Iraq, but I disagree.

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The whole thing depends on whom the democrats put up against him. But then again, If I remember correctly, in 1991 Clinton had big problems because he was seen as too young/in-experienced and “promiscuous”, which normally does not sit well with the “family values” crowd. But he still won because the US economy was bad and Bush’s credibility was doubtful (“read my lips – no more taxes”).

Granted to a degree, but Clinton was also able to build a consensus during his campaign. Howard Dean (Vermont Gov. and ultra liberal) will not be able to create that consensus if he is nominated and then has to build a platform towards the center. He doesn't have the tact.

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My bet is that Bush is gone by the end of next year,

Nope!

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One thing I find amusing is the hate towards Clinton that is always expressed by the right wing club in this forum. The only criticism from American friends I heard was that he was a) a womaniser (and lied about it) b) in some peoples opinion cut defence spending too much. I visited the US quite a few times in the 90’s and it is my clear impression that the US had never a better economy, jobs and wealth improvement for all then during the Clinton years. Plus the relations with all of America’s allies were never better. But that is just my subjective impression.

I'm not talking about the economy here, I'm talking about some of the core charters within the Democratic party and the impact of having one of the strongest representatives of that party showing some significant dissatisfaction with the party leadership. This isn't a Republican leveling his sights at Clinton or the Democrats. That's my point.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Shark 0]

Chris,

It doesn't matter who the CINC is. If they are of the Republican party, all the whiners will still complain. Actually, if it's not your candidate you will feel like a loser and still complain. (Not directed at you.) What really gets me is all the whining from non-Americans (Okay, I didn't want to say foreigner because some will cry.) on how bad our country and leadership is, when they should be more concerned about their own shit. (Sorry, I cannot provide a link to show my credibility and that I can Google-it.) Anyway, I know I'm right.

[mikkey 0]

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What really gets me is all the whining from non-Americans (Okay, I didn't want to say foreigner because some will cry.)

Well I suggest that you instead participate in forums in which only US citizens participate. This way I do not have to read your ranting posts.

As long as the US gets involved in other countries affairs or affects other countries security, I and others are entitled to have an opinion about your administration and its policies.

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(Sorry, I cannot provide a link to show my credibility and that I can Google-it.) Anyway, I know I'm right.

That about says it all....

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Shark 0]

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Well I suggest that you instead participate in forums in which only US citizens participate. This way I do not have to read your ranting posts.

Nor should you feel obligated to start whining. Like I mentioned before, take a long look at your own government. It starts at home, mate.

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As long as the US gets involved in other countries affairs or affects other countries security, I and others are entitled to have an opinion about your administration and its policies.

My administration doesn't really give a shit about your opinions.

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(Sorry, I cannot provide a link to show my credibility and that I can Google-it.) Anyway, I know I'm right.

That about says it all....

[mikkey 0]

Seems you and juanesky share a lot.

You are just a troll. So no more food for you.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[Shark 0]

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Seems you and juanesky share a lot.

You are just a troll. So no more food for you.

Then that would make you a Mushroom? I can give you more food.

Out.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Yes I would agree that Bill seems to like to "bend" the truth.

[mikkey 0]

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Incidently Bill bent the truth while under oath. That's called perjury.

Correct. Technically. Still, IMO there is a big difference between lying about sex (after being "set up" by the K. Starr) and lying about serious issues of Government like Watergate, Arms for Hostages, WMD's, going to War etc. I prefer a leader who tells lies about sex compared to a leader that tells lies about corruption or war.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[SkydiverRick 0]

As long as the US gets involved in other countries affairs or affects other countries security, I and others are entitled to have an opinion about your administration and its policies.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

Quote

Incidently Bill bent the truth while under oath. That's called perjury.

Correct. Technically. Still, IMO there is a big difference between lying about sex (after being "set up" by the K. Starr) and lying about serious issues of Government like Watergate, Arms for Hostages, WMD's, going to War etc. I prefer a leader who tells lies about sex compared to a leader that tells lies about corruption or war.

Correct period. Perjury is illegal in this country regardless of the subject. Bush has never been proven a liar, Clinton has.

never pull low......unless you are

[mikkey 0]

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You seem to forget that Austrailia sent troops to Iraq also. The US isn't the only one involved in other countries affairs.

Correct and with my "blessing". And you are in my opinion more then welcome to comment on the policies of the Australian or any other Government.

I was replying to a Troll who complained "foreigners" commenting about your administrations policy.

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

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Bush has never been proven a liar, Clinton has.

We will see. As times goes by it might be proven that Bush & Co knowingly were spreading incorrect information about Iraq and WMD.

Every politician lies. I rather have them lie about sex then war...

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[SkydiverRick 0]

And you are in my opinion more then welcome to comment on the policies of the Australian or any other Government.

[billvon 3,125]

> I personally know many moderate democrats who are so frustrated with
> their party...and have been for awhile...that they absolutely plan on voting for GWB . . .

Latest Quinnipac University poll:


Bush 47
Clark 43

Bush 48
Dean 42

Bush 48
Lieberman 43

Bush 49
Gephardt 43

Bush 49
Kerry 43

Sept 21 Gallup/CNN poll:

Clark 49
Bush 46

Kerry 48
Bush 47

Lieberman 47
Bush 48

Dean 45
Bush 49

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Makes sense though. You say you know democrats that will vote for Bush - I've met several republicans who will vote for anyone _but_ him.

[billvon 3,125]

>Now, the leak from the White House in regard to the revealing of the
>CIA agent. All documents handed over in a timely manner.

Which is like praising a car thief for always obeying the speed limit after he steals cars. Sorta overlooks the fact that he's actually committing a crime.


>Outgoing Clinton administration: Trashes White House and all their computers.

Funny, that turns out to be a lie. From Salon, 5/23/01:
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Now it seems those closely detailed stories were largely bunk. Last week it was revealed that a formal review by the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative agency, "had found no damage to the offices of the White House's East or West Wings or EOB" and that Bush's own representatives had reported "there is no record of damage that may have been deliberately caused by the employees of the Clinton administration."
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>Bush's reaction: Just fix it all, don't make a big deal and let's get down to business.

Bush's reaction: Lie about it and play it for all it's worth.

You'll have to find a better example than that, I'm afraid.

[billvon 3,125]

>Bush has never been proven a liar, Clinton has.
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May 29, 2003, George W Bush:

We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories. You remember when Colin Powell stood up in front of the world, and he said, Iraq has got laboratories, mobile labs to build biological weapons. They're illegal. They're against the United Nations resolutions, and we've so far discovered two.

[billvon 3,125]

>When it's a liberal it's bending the truth, when it's a conservative
> the lying bastard should be shot.

Apparently when it's a liberal he should be impeached and booted out of office. When it's a conservative - he's just making a political case for war. Perfectly understandable to lie and claim Saddam was an imminent threat to the world to get support for a war.