Claims of torture in Guantanamo Bay

[usmcrigger 0]

To all who have posted and read this thread,

I know it seems that in most peoples mind we have become a terrorist nation ourselves. Understand this we are facing a threat that is above and beyond any we have faced before. There are many happenings at Guantanamo that we do not know or need to know. In order to enjoy the freedom we have we must understand that this world is not a utopia. Sometimes things are not as black and white as we percieve them to be. What will happen to these detainees is yet to be seen, but you can be sure that whatever happens is for the best of our nation.

As for the conditions at Gitmo I can assure you that they are being treated in a humane manner. There are guards down there that I know personally and they have said that the place is no worse than the prisons we hold our own militarymen in.

Be sure that what is going on in our nation today is hard and trying on all of us. All we can do is to trust our elected officials to do what is in our country's best interest, and exactly that OUR nation not the UNITED nations. GOD BLESS AMERICA.

I will be sure, always

SEMPER FI

[firediver 0]

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>The US was traditionally off limits to attack by middle eastern terror groups . . .

What? Did you forget about the 1993 attempts to destroy the World Trade Center? They killed six people and injured over 1000. They were trying to knock it down, according to later reports.

>September 2001 changed the rules . . ..

It didn't change a damn thing other than wake some people up. Do you really believe that one terrorist act changed anything? Was 9/11 more of a big deal that a civil war that divided the country in two? The constitution endured that. Was it more significant than a world war in which the US itself was attacked and tens of millions died? The constitution survived that. Was it more significant than the cold war, during which two countries had the power not to just destroy a few buildings, but every one of our major cities? The constitution survived that. Was it more significant than a years-long proxy war against communism that we couldn't win, and which took the lives of tens of thousands of US soldiers? It survived that too.

The constitution is the center of our strength as a nation, and will endure despite all the above events. It has endured far worse; it will endure worse in the future.

> We have the ability to eradicate any country on the face of the earth
> if we so choose, but we do not. Other governments have tried to
> accomplish this, and primarily failed due to our interventions.

We survived the cold war with the USSR not because we were strong, or because they were weak, but because we were wise enough to NOT use our weapons of mass destruction, and employ diplomacy instead. Fortunately they were also wise enough to choose that path.

>We know that we must use methods that we had not previously
>used...and so we should.

No, we will continue to follow the constitution, because it is the law of the land, and it has served us well for over 200 years now. It will endure despite people who think the sky is falling, and that today is so much worse than any other time that we must discard the constitution in favor of a police state - for our own protection, of course. I think Franklin said it best:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

It's as true today as it was 200 years ago.

If you read closely, I said that the US was traditionally off limits to attacks.....and that was in fact the case. The Attack in 1993, which was also a chemical weapon attack as well, albeit a failed one, violated that premise that was held by the groups that operated in the US under false pretenses. If you read my post further, I stated that we could wipe out anyone we choose, which we don't. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about in that regard, but we both seem to say that we could, but don't. The next section we agree to disagree, the 2001 attack changed many, many things. Not the constitution, but some ways in which it is applied IMHO. Luckily, the document is as flexible as it is viable. That's what has ensured it's existence for over two centuries. We are nowhere near that of a police state...I've been in those types of places..this isn't one of them. Previous conflicts were endured with uniformed forces attacking our way of life. This is a slightly different situation, and we are using a different tactic to meet the potential threat. We shifted out tactics slightly after 1993, and after 2001 we shifted once again. We do the best we can...but we are not bearing a resemblance to a police state by any means.

Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary!

[billvon 3,116]

>I stated that we could wipe out anyone we choose, which we don't.
> I'm not sure what you are disagreeing with me about in that regard,
> but we both seem to say that we could, but don't.

Yeah, I agree with you - that it is our willingness to _not_ use our nuclear weapons (for example) that has so far kept the world habitable.

>The next section we agree to disagree, the 2001 attack changed
>many, many things.

It made a lot of americans very afraid. There was nothing new to learn there, nothing we couldn't have learned from talking to, say, the Israelis. Americans now perceive things differently. But nothing really changed. 9/11 could have happened in 1970, it will be possible in 2010.

Talk to anyone who lived through the 50's. Ask them if we fear terrorism more today than we feared communism back then. Back then people were building fallout shelters in their back yards, accusing anyone and everyone of being commies, and really, honestly thinking that all major US cities - not just a few buildings - were about to be destroyed.

>Luckily, the document is as flexible as it is viable. That's what has
> ensured it's existence for over two centuries.

I don't buy that it's flexible in some areas (like the part about due process) and not flexible in others (like it's OK to outlaw handguns, just temporarily, to help stop terrorism.) It is the law of the land, and laws should not be broken just because it's easy or popular to do so.

It can be modified, and I have no problem with that. If you wanted to amend the constitution to add a caveat to the right to representation, then that's the proper way to do it. I would hope you wouldn't succeed, but if you did, I'd respect the new laws because we used the process we have in place, rather than just scare tactics, to change our government.

> We do the best we can...but we are not bearing a resemblance to a
> police state by any means.

I agree that we're not close to a police state, but we are starting down that path. (Look up the translation, in Russian, of "department of homeland security.") Once you _have_ a police state it's too late. To prevent that, you have to protect even the possibly guilty from illegal government actions until it is proven that they _are_ guilty. That applies to suspected terrorists, drug dealers, talk show host drug addicts, and troublemakers.

We have a system in place to deal with people like that. It's worked for over 200 years. It's worked during wartime, it's worked with communist spies, it's worked during civil wars. It will work now.

[mikkey 0]

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Be sure that what is going on in our nation today is hard and trying on all of us. All we can do is to trust our elected officials to do what is in our country's best interest, and exactly that OUR nation not the UNITED nations. GOD BLESS AMERICA

Firstly, trusting your elected officials blindly is very naive at best and probably stupid. Not the idea of democracy (does Watergate ring a bell?). Secondly, acting only in the US interest and not the UN interest is not a smart statement. In the long run it is in the US' best interest to act through and with the UN. The attitude expressed by some posters here " god bless America and fuck the rest" is exactly the attitude that will foster anti- Americanism and terrorism. The arrogance of power is very dangerous.

Getting back to the theme of the thread, the problem with Guantanamo Bay is the lack of transparency and accountability. There is too much doubt who is being held there and why. This is damaging to the US' standing in the world. The following is an article from an Australian Newspaper from today. I do not know how credible it is, but it does raise questions about what is going on in GB...

------------------------------------------------------------
US misleads on terror suspect: lawyer
By Fergus Shiel
October 23, 2003

Maha Habib wants her husband freed.

US President George Bush had misled the Australian public about the capture of one of the two Australian terror suspects held without charge in Guantanamo Bay, a member of the men's US legal team claimed yesterday.

Last week President Bush said that the Australian detainees, Mamdouh Habib and David Hicks, had been "picked up on the battlefield".

But Melbourne lawyer Richard Bourke, who is acting in the US on behalf of detainees imprisoned at the US Navy base on the south-eastern tip of Cuba, said Habib was nowhere near a battlefield when captured. "In fact, Mamdouh Habib was detained before the US invasion of Afghanistan even began. He was picked up hundreds of kilometres inside Pakistan, apparently preparing to return to Australia," Mr Bourke said.

He said Habib had never been a combatant, instead having travelled to Pakistan to look for employment and for a school for his two children. He was arrested by Pakistani authorities on October 5, 2001, two days before the US launched its first aerial assault on Afghanistan and before ground fighting began. Later, Habib was taken to Egypt before being handed to the Americans, who took him to Afghanistan and then Cuba.

Habib's wife, Maha, has written to President Bush, saying her husband, whom she has not spoken to since his arrest, has never broken an American law. She writes that the youngest of their four children cannot remember their father. "He is a decent and loyal citizen of Australia, where he has lived for 19 years, and was in Pakistan on family business," Mrs Habib writes.

"His only crime was that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time."

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When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 3,116]

>The attitude expressed by some posters here " god bless America
> and fuck the rest" is exactly the attitude that will foster anti-
> Americanism and terrorism. The arrogance of power is very dangerous.

From The Onion:

BUSH SEEKS SUPPORT FOR NEW US FOREIGN POLICY

UNITED NATIONS—In an address before the U.N. General Assembly Monday, President Bush called upon the international community to support his "U.S. Does Whatever It Wants" plan, which would permit the U.S. to take any action it wishes anywhere in the world at any time.

"As a shining beacon of freedom and democracy, America has inspired the world," said Bush in his 25-minute address. "With its military might, it has kept the peace and bravely defended the unalienable [sic] rights of millions around the globe. In this spirit, I call upon the world's nations to support my proposal to give America unrestricted carte blanche to remove whatever leaders, plunder whatever resources, and impose whatever policies it deems necessary or expedient."

According to top Bush Administration officials, if the measure is passed by the U.N.—and possibly if it is not—the U.S. would immediately launch invasions of Iraq, North Korea, and Cuba; establish oil-drilling operations in Siberia; install nuclear-missile silos in Mongolia along the Chinese border; make English the official language of the planet; detain thousands of Middle Eastern nationals currently in the U.S. on temporary visas; begin each day with a moment of worldwide prayer; and prohibit Japan and Germany from manufacturing automobiles.

In addition, no demonstration against U.S. actions by any foreign nation or individual would be permitted. Any such protestation would be deemed a high crime subject to a U.N. tribunal, with those found guilty flown to Texas for execution by lethal injection.

"After the unspeakable events of last Sept. 11, the U.S. was deeply touched by the outpouring of support and condolences from our neighbors and allies the world over," Bush said. "This kindness played a vital role in our national healing process, but, more importantly, it cemented our long-standing self-image as the country, with all other nations lumped together into a vague, foreign Other Place. I call upon you now to join us in our vision of America as the only country whose wishes matter."

Bush then turned to the pressing issue of Iraq.

"Despite repeated American efforts to change the situation, Saddam Hussein defiantly continues his longtime policy of being the president of Iraq," Bush said. "The time has come for this man to step down, because we want him to."

In addition to enabling the U.S. to address foreign crises, Bush said his plan will help solve many of the nation's domestic problems.

"While there exist many grave threats to America abroad, we suffer still more problems—from unemployment to a lack of quality, affordable housing—right here at home," Bush said. "After this resolution is passed, we will begin a 10-year project to clean out our nation's landfills and toxic-waste sites, transport the materials to Central American jungles, and build low-cost housing on the newly cleared land. This would solve the housing shortage, create thousands of construction jobs, and improve our nation's environment, all in one fell swoop."

As much of a boon as it would be to America, Bush stressed that his plan will also benefit the rest of the world, giving foreigners greater access than ever to American goods and entertainment.

"From the Beijing businessman who treats his family to dinner at KFC to the New Delhi textile worker who unwinds after a hard day's work by watching Friends, the world community has embraced our many wonderful cultural and commercial exports," Bush said. "As part of my plan, the U.S. will be allowed to export its products tariff-free, while other countries' goods will be subject to heavy taxes. This will help ensure that people the world over will continue to enjoy our computers, DVDs, and soft drinks, free of the clutter of competing non-American goods on their store shelves."

Bush concluded his speech by calling upon the U.N. to fly an extra-large U.S. flag outside its headquarters, high above the other member nations' flags.

"From the Monroe Doctrine to our ignoring of the Kyoto Treaty, America has always boldly defied the powers that be. Ever since its founding, this great nation has courageously asserted its will, bravely tuning out the objections of the other nations of the world," Bush said at the speech's conclusion. "I urge you today, do not let that legacy die. Allow us to continue our long-standing tradition of getting our way."

Global reaction to Bush's plan has been mixed, with 56 percent of Americans in support and 100 percent of non-Americans strongly opposed.

[Zlew 0]

<>

Are you kidding? Their kind just torture and kill. Look at how Iraq treated out prisoiners in both wars, look at what happened in africa. They beat people, cut, torture reguarly for as long as they please. Our guys are lucky to survive at all and not be drug through the street lifeless.
What you left wing nuts call "totrute" that we are supposedly doing to the folks in cuba isn't even on the same scale as what our enemy does.
Bleed your hearts out, have all the sympathy you want.
Again, I don't buy have the crap they say is going on there, and I have no sympathy otherwise.

Z

[Amazon 7]

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I had hoped history would have taught our leaders a lesson. THey are not readin hard enough.

AS IF.. they even studied anything other than partying at the frat house

Jeanne

[billvon 3,116]

>Are you kidding? Their kind just torture and kill. Look at how Iraq
> treated out prisoiners in both wars, look at what happened in africa.

From FOX, just so you can't claim it's the bleeding heart liberal bias:
---------------------------------
Hernandez, Specialists Joseph Hudson and Shoshana Johnson and PFC Patrick Miller were in a group of soldiers trying to fight off an Iraqi ambush - Sergeant James Riley was close by. Hernandez was shot in the arm, Johnson the ankles, Hudson the ribs and buttocks. One by one their weapons stopped working, choked by the dust of the Iraqi desert. Sergeant Riley says he had no choice and ordered a surrender.

After being beaten, the captives were taken to Baghdad, stripped of their clothing and belongings and given unwashed blue or yellow striped pajamas. Hernandez had his girlfriend's headband taken from his wrist. Two or three times a day they were given water or tea and bowls of rice, some pita bread and sometimes chicken. They slept on concrete floors and were not allowed outside to see the sun or to exercise or shower. The guards were at first cruel and menacing, but the physical abuse largely subsided, the prisoners recalled.
----------------------------------

Where's the torture and kill? Well, here, for one:

Reservists charged in Iraqi POW's death

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - Eight Marine reservists stationed at Camp Pendleton have been charged in connection with the June death of an Iraqi man who was held at a detention facility in Iraq, authorities said.
FULL STORY »

---------------------------------

Are there examples of Iraqis torturing and killing Americans? No doubt. We have also tortured and killed people, but we are usually much better about it than most other countries. We should continue to _be_ better about it, and having secret military prisons is not the right path to take to get there.

[Zlew 0]

Well Bill. there were reports that when the iraquis realized that teir asses were kicked (since we took them in 3 weeks) that they layed way off.

Do you want me to find video links from 91 whith the beaten airmen put on TV (against international law) saying they loved Iraq....only it was hard to understand them since they were so badly beaten?
If you want I can find links for you with the stories of the american and british that were beaten savely beaten, shocked, hung from cealings by the Iraqi army. Or do you want to see stuff from somilia where they drug the dead bodies through the street?
it's amaing how you guys only hear what you want to.
show me another country that treats captivs as well as we do.
You think the russians make sure the Chechen's get food that is pleasing to their Muslim faith? Cots to sleep in...cover from the elements?
give me a fucking break

Z

[Zlew 0]

Give me a few min's Bill, i'm going to find a post the pics of the americans there were SHOT IN THE HEAD and put on tv in the 2003 Iraq war.
Those guys didn't get any Rice bill.
they got a round in the head
Edit: upon further review i've decided not to post those pics. they are the pics that they woldn't show on CNN of Fox.... the ones they cut short. The ones that aljezera played to the rest of the world to enjoy, but US media only showed the edited version and commented on the dead bodies in the background with bullet wounds to the head. The first video of the first POW's in iraq this year (durring the short time period where they thought they would kill us all). The footage of the group from Lynch's party with the guys shot in the head in the room.
the pics were posted on several webpages, and if you want to see them PM me and i'll give you the name of a few places to look.
Z

[Amazon 7]

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Do you want me to find video links from 91 whith the beaten airmen put on TV (against international law) saying they loved Iraq....only it was hard to understand them since they were so badly beaten?

I remember those pictures very well..

Do you have ANY idea what its like to punch out of a jet... thru the canpopy at 500MPH plus talk about getting your ass kicked...I remember seeing those guys and thought at first they were beaten.. BUT it was later determined that the injuries were ejection related.


There was some mistreatment there.

http://www.isanet.org/noarchive/forman.htm
Excerpt from link above

While flying a mission over Baghdad during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, U. S. Air Force Major Jeffrey S. Tice’s F-16 was hit by shrapnel from an exploding missile warhead. He survived by parachuting to the ground. He later described the next forty-five days as a time spent in hell. During Iraqi interrogations, he was beaten with hard rubber clubs that left bruises over his entire body. His torturers dislocated his jaw and broke his eardrum. Electric wires were wrapped around his ears and chin, resulting in his teeth being chipped. In addition, he was kept confined in a six by nine foot cell. Major Tice was not fed adequately while in captivity, which caused him to lose twenty-nine pounds.92

U.S. Army Major Rhonda L. Cornum was in a Black Hawk helicopter that was shot down during the Persian Gulf War while on a rescue mission. She was dragged from the aircraft and kicked by her Iraqi captors. During her subsequent captivity, Major Cornum was sexually assaulted.93 Major Cornum and U.S. Army Specialist Melissa Rathbun-Nealy were the first U.S. women POW’s since nurses were captured by Japanese forces on Corregidor in 1942.94

Iraq is a signatory to the 1949 Geneva POW Convention, the current international treaty on the subject. Not all Iraqis have treated POW’s inhumanely as they did during the Persian Gulf War. During the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, several Israeli aircraft were shot down while flying over Iraq. The captured Israeli air crew members were in general treated humanely by their Iraqi captors.95

The point is of ALL the captives ( about 30) only 3 were mistreated.. that is individual unit misconduct. Considering what they did to thier own people routinely.. I would say they fared pretty good.

The pictures of the dead.. though grusome were those of the soldiers killed in the ambush... headwounds... of course.. what area of the body is exposed in trucks vehicles. People die in war... we did a lot less dying than did the Iraqui forces.

oh and just for some balance.

The Brits treated the Argentinians fairly well that they captured in the Falklands.
For a more comprehensive list of conflicts...
http://www.onwar.com/aced/chrono/index.htm

Plenty of carnage there and plenty of attrocities.choose your favorite conflict.

Somalia

U.S. Army Chief Warrant Officer Michael J. Durant’s helicopter was shot down during October 1993 in Mogadishu, Somalia, during the peacekeeping operation. He was surrounded by an angry mob, had dirt thrown in his face, and was hit several times on the head with a cane or club. He was held captive for eleven days before being released.96 Somalia, like virtually every other country in the world, is a signatory to the 1949 Geneva Convention. Thus, POW treatment standards applied to the peacekeeping operation there. CWO Durant’s treatment obviously violated the 1949 Geneva POW Convention.

They saw a need to keep him alive for bargaining.

The dead were dragged and mutilated. It affected the public but considering what they do to each others tribes... not surprising.

The point is the conventions are there to PREVENT the bad treatment of OUR people .

Another excerpt. now PAY ATTENTION

There are six points that need to be emphasized from the study of history of enforcement of POW treatment standards:

1. Reciprocity – as General Eisenhower stated, do not give the enemy an excuse for justification for mistreating and murdering your forces’ members, who have been captured, by violating the Geneva POW Convention;

2. Indirect force protection – again as General Eisenhower wrote, your observing the law of war concerning POW’s will serve as an inducement for enemy soldiers to surrender;

3. In accordance with Senator Harkin’s protest, your position on humane POW treatment will be weakened by your ally’s not observing the law of war on this subject;

4. As Article 5 of the 1949 Geneva POW Convention states, prisoner of war status is to be determined by a competent tribunal;

5. Be consistent – do not put members of the enemy’s armed forces in six by eight foot wire cages after your government condemned the confinement of U.S. prisoners of war in seven by nine foot cells by North Vietnamese Communist officials during the Vietnam War.

Jeanne

[Shark 0]

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5. Be consistent – do not put members of the enemy’s armed forces in six by eight foot wire cages after your government condemned the confinement of U.S. prisoners of war in seven by nine foot cells by North Vietnamese Communist officials during the Vietnam War.

Easy there, Amazon... My former XO wasn't so lucky to be staying in your luxurious Hanoi Hilton. Daily room service consisted of spoiled rice and crow's foot, with maggots as condiments. They followed desert with a little rope torture. My grandfather also spent a few years as a POW. It was difficult for him to speak about his experience while he was still alive.

[Zlew 0]

<>
You have to remember the bleeding heart left wingers don't ever want to talk about that stuff. they only want to talk about how terrable we are. You could introduce them to your XO and your Grandfather and they still wouldn't get it.

Z

[juanesky 0]

Well, I guess we will need to learn how to love and respect the terrorist to be in the good graces of these people...

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zlew 0]

lol
that's what they want as far as i can see
set them up in a condo in FL
put them on Salary (WE NEED A NEW GOVERNEMT PROGRAM!!!) and make them better people.
THATS what we need to do, anything less is TORTURE, and we should SUE!!!

You know what half their problem is? {
{ is half their problem, see if u can figure out the other half.
Z

[Amazon 7]

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You have to remember the bleeding heart left wingers don't ever want to talk about that stuff. they only want to talk about how terrable we are. You could introduce them to your XO and your Grandfather and they still wouldn't get it.

So by not agreeing with your Ultra Right Wing analysis I am a bleeding left winger.. and not one of the majority in the middle. See that is where you Faschists in the Ultra Right wing fail.... you fail to realize that just because someone does not agree with you... it does not make everyone to the left of Hitler a leftist.
No I just wanted to show a balance.. to some of the crass Ultra right wing KILL EM ALL and let god sort em out kind of stupidity. I was IN the service in 1973.. and was stationed with some of the guys who got out of the camps in N. Vietnam. Most of them were deeply affected. Years of solitary and mistreatment took thier toll. Lives were torn apart.. They did thier best to resist and come home with honor.. from those dire circumstances. AS I said before to many of them ... just getting out the NAMES of who the NVA were holding was a victory for them. Rather than have a repeat of that kind of treatment for our people it would behove us to Not be so freakin hypocritical. The world( who it seems the Right wing doesn't give a rats ass about ) is judging what we do there. So what do we do when the entire world sees us as the same kind of threat that they saw in other fascist regimes just 60 years ago?

Jeanne

[juanesky 0]

I Love Arafat....

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zlew 0]

The world judges us by a standard that is above and beyond what ANY other country can do. No other military has the smart wepons we have, and those who do can't afford to use them. so they use dumb wepons. They use them and in order to take out a military target all sorts of other things and people go with it... the same standard we had 30 years ago. That is still the standard in warfare. So we spend billions in the last SEVERAL conflicts, not just iraq or afgan, using smart wepons to cut down on non military casualties. The bombs that cost so much more, that conventional bombs will do the same job.... But god forbid we hit the wrong building, or a bomb miss it's mark. Or have our bomb take out the right target and kill a kid across the street... The rest of the world says we are careless, killing civilians left and right... they hold us to a standard that NO OTHER COUNTRY can even come close to. And you ask me if I care what the rest of the world thinks? Show me another country that has the ability or the balls to live up to our standard of warfare, and then they can judge us. We live in this bubble, and seem to think that the world is all like we are, and that even in WAR, we should hold the gold plated standards even for the scum of the earth.
That's not the way it work. Not for our country, and for sure not for any other nation in the world.
Of all the nantions in the world, if you have to be a prisoner, PRAY to god above that the bastards keeping you captive have old glory on their arms.
Z

[Amazon 7]

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Of all the nantions in the world, if you have to be a prisoner, PRAY to god above that the bastards keeping you captive have old glory on their arms.

And when moe and more of our own people are in concentration camps with that Old Glory on thier arm?? And why will they be there... because they did not agree with the current party line??

I am sure you will not be there... in the camps.. you are too easily propogandized into lockstep with them.

Just remember.. we have those standards because unlike SO MANY other places in the world.. the people of this country come from EVERYWHERE..EVERY COUNTRY we ARE the world.. We are supposed to reflect what is good in the world. Its a high standard.. and unfortunately.. we aint doin so good right now.

Jeanne

[Zlew 0]

<>
we are the children....
we are the ones who make a better day so let's start giving......
lol

We're not the world just a small part of it.
Our standard is high, higher than anyone elses in the world... so i'd say we are doing pretty damn good at it.
Does that make sense to you? NOBODY can even come close to our standards and treatments. It's not that there are others who are where we are but miss the mark once in a while....there isn't anyone on our level. With that in mind i'd say it's hard to argue that we are doing a bad job, when even if we are doing poorly, we are doing better than any one else can.

[juanesky 0]

Ahem, Amazon, I don't think that really getting with box cutters into an airliner, and taking ove and diving it to a building is near a party standard followed by the current administration.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Zlew 0]

<>>
That really does make me feel better. I was worried that rational people were in this thread... but when people with conspiracy theory in mind... Ahh...i feel much better

Yes, thats the truth and u are correct. We are trying to set up concentration camps for liberals. We're gunna lock you up in some un human conditions because you goofy left wingers just don't seem to understand.
hehe. I really do feel better now
thanks for for that
Z

[Amazon 7]

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Ahem, Amazon, I don't think that really getting with box cutters into an airliner, and taking ove and diving it to a building is near a party standard followed by the current administration

Now put down the bottle and think for a second. NONE of those terrorists on the planes lived. I am referring to the subsequent Patriot Act and now Son of Patriot Act. The level this current administration is going to... to curtail personal freedoms of Americans.. to allow the government to SPY on people in this country is a very short trip from... terrorist activities.. to anyone NOT following the party line. There is already a sence of censure and censorship in this country.. There is already .. as you and ZLEW are exibiting.. that IF someone does not agree with you wholeheartedly and completely... that you are suddenly Un-American. There is an air of facsism in the air.... Orwellian Big Brother .. NEW SPEAK...call it what you will.. but its being used as an excuse to erode the rights of ALL Americans. How far will you allow this FEAR of terrorism to go before its no longer an America with free speech and all the things you claim we have. Or will it progress to being AmeriKa, Police state...Run by the REligeous Cabal... fighting against those evil Non believers.....Dont go to church on Sunday...Go directly to jail.

So bad people did bad things to us.. do we become bad people in return .. to justify doing bad things??

Jeanne

[Amazon 7]

Quote

Z
Blue skies
Black panties
RED RAIDERS!!!

Hey. Zach . just go put on your black panties... see how your buddies treat ya .. the ones with Old Glory on thier arms....

Jeanne

[juanesky 0]

Amazon, you could kindly put the insults to one side, calling people drunk withou evidence nor posting to the likings, means I do not like either drugs nor alcohol as a way to entertain myself. Neither I am facist, event though you seem contempt to say it. You are referring to the patriot act, and I am referring to the terrorists you are so prone to defend.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon