PhillyKev 0 #26 October 21, 2003 QuoteSo offer them room and board at your crib. Who do you think is paying for them now? That's a ridiculous suggestion. Just because I don't think we should treat accused criminals this way doesn't mean I like them. Terrorists and the taliban are scum of the earth and need to be elliminated. But, the executive branch of our gov't should not be given exclusive authority to detain people indefinitely and hold them under cruel conditions. What's to stop them from doing it to you? The entire agenda of this administration has been to subvert the constituition and consolidate power under the executive branch. They've been whittling away at the checks and balances built into our government. Look at history, this is how almost every dictator has come to power in a formerly democratic nation. Don't believe it could happen? It's already starting. And it's come pretty close before. 60 years may seem like a long time ago, but it really isn't. This country almost fell to fascism back then because of rampant nationalism. People who condone these kinds of activities by the administration are the sheeple that will facilitate the downfall of civil liberties as we know them. I'd rather see this country nuked and destroyed than turn into a fascist prison. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #27 October 21, 2003 Ragrding the torture claims, I really don't buy it. In fact, I posted this a couple of months ago about how comparatively good the conditins are. Still, I do not agree with keeping people in limbo. Under these creative definitions, who is next? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #28 October 21, 2003 QuoteI'd rather see this country nuked and destroyed than turn into a fascist prison. I'll join there. Remember Patrick Henry? "Give me liberty or give me death?" It almost seems as if that may end up being the choice in the future... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #29 October 21, 2003 QuoteStill, I do not agree with keeping people in limbo. Under these creative definitions, who is next? Well, let's see. Just about everyone. Did you know that "terrorist activities" can be tacked onto a whole littany of crimes now. Such as simple drug posession. The DC sniper has been charged under the new terrorism laws. Yeah, that guy was a nut bag, but what makes him different than any other serial killer that's come before? What makes him equal to Osama Bin Laden? Bush has the sheeple wrapped around his finger. All he has to do is shout terrorism and everyone jumps behind him for protection. If it weren't so frightening it would be laughably pathetic that people are duped so easily. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #30 October 21, 2003 Oh, well since you put it that way.... Come on. These are people that were trying to kill our people. I would like you to show me ANY photographic evidence that we do not have the cleanest, most civil jails, prisons, or detention centers in the world. If you really want to complain about something that bad, try working to get the rest of the world UP to our standards.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #31 October 21, 2003 QuoteCome on. These are people that were trying to kill our people. I would like you to show me ANY photographic evidence that we do not have the cleanest, most civil jails, prisons, or detention centers in the world. And I'd like our government to provide any evidence whatsoever to anyone that any of the people being held tried to kill anyone. How do you know that every one of these people was trying to kill anyone? Are you telling me that innocent civilians couldn't possibly have been captured during a war against non-uniformed combatants? Who cares how nice the prison is? Holding someone indefinitely without providing one shred of evidence that they did anything wrong is evil. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #32 October 21, 2003 >Did you know that "terrorist activities" can be tacked onto a whole > littany of crimes now. Such as simple drug posession. The DC sniper > has been charged under the new terrorism laws. Yep. Just as the RICO laws were intended to fight organized crime but are now used for everything from arresting hackers to threatening medical insurance companies, so the Patriot Act is now used to go after non-terrorists. So be careful about thinking of the Patriot Act as applying only to evil turbaned terrorists - it might just some day apply to _you._ And once you're told you can't talk to a lawyer (or leave, or make any calls) until they are _certain_ your accidental landing near a secret FBI training area has nothing whatsoever to do with terrorism - well, then it's too late to decide that it was a bad idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #33 October 21, 2003 QuoteThe DC sniper has been charged under the new terrorism laws. Yeah, that guy was a nut bag, but what makes him different than any other serial killer that's come before? What makes him equal to Osama Bin Laden? What about that was not terrorism? I know several people who were more concerned about being shot by this nut bag than getting blown up by Bin Laden... on a personal level terror is terror... it may not have been politically motivated, but still terrorism. Different than other serial killers, not really... they may have charged with terrorism today too... the same as BL, no not in the grand scheme of the things... but why should he be the bench mark? I agree that the Patriot Act has some problems and casts too wide a net... and the name "Dept of Homeland Security" still brings images of brown shirts and jack boots... but these guys could, would, and should have charged with terrorist activities without it. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #34 October 21, 2003 What crime isn't terrorism? If you hold someone up at gunpoint, aren't they terrified? I don't think criminals should be given a cake walk, but I think everyone should be given the rights that were guaranteed to us by the constitution. The gov't has now been given the means to bypass those rights by tacking the terrorism label on it. Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. How does that apply to drug posession? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #35 October 21, 2003 QuoteHow does that apply to drug posession? If it is a guy holding a dime bag, it doesn't... if it is a guy holding a few kilos with the intent of selling it to generate income to finace operations... it does. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #36 October 21, 2003 QuoteQuoteHow does that apply to drug posession? If it is a guy holding a dime bag, it doesn't... if it is a guy holding a few kilos with the intent of selling it to generate income to finace operations... it does. J So if the gov't suspects that you've done that, you think it's ok that they hold you indefinitely in a foreign country, don't charge you with anything, don't provide any evidence that you did anything, and deny you access to a lawyer? I think it's pretty ironic that we're holding these people in Cuba, considering it's the same kind of rights that Castro provides to his people. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #37 October 21, 2003 QuoteWhat crime isn't terrorism? If you hold someone up at gunpoint, aren't they terrified? I don't think criminals should be given a cake walk, but I think everyone should be given the rights that were guaranteed to us by the constitution. The gov't has now been given the means to bypass those rights by tacking the terrorism label on it. Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. How does that apply to drug posession? You have to GET your drugs somewhere, right? So, funding a terrorist org. is just as horrible as being one of the terrorists. Yes my statement is a gross overstatement. I half agree with you on this. There is no discernable link. But the possibility has to be investigated.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #38 October 21, 2003 QuoteI take great issues with the fact that anybody can be held by our government in this way. It is a dangerous precedent to set. Maybe it's because of that pesky 14th amendment, which states that "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." While the 14th amendment applies to civilians , it does not apply to POWs. POWs are not afforded due process of law until the cessation of war activities (Section II, Article 118, Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War) http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm Former Special Forces SERE Instructor... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #39 October 21, 2003 QuoteBut the possibility has to be investigated. I don't disagree. I don't think we should turn a blind eye to terrorism. I don't think we should coddle terrorists. What I do think is that we should PROVE that someone is a terrorist BEFORE we punish them. That's one of the basic principles that this country was founded on and fought wars over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #40 October 21, 2003 >I half agree with you on this. There is no discernable link. But the >possibility has to be investigated. I agree with you there. Fortunately we have an entire justice system expert at doing just that - _and_ staying within the bounds prescribed by the constitution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #41 October 21, 2003 The U.S. Says the Afghanistan War Is Over. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,449942,00.html Why are we holding POW's from a war that is over? I don't think they should be let go, but if you're going to be classified that way, that have to be according to international law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #42 October 21, 2003 Yes, I understand that part. Furthermore, I am not stating that the conditions are inhumane. Nevertheless, this was not a war that was conducted. It was a SASO operation, not a war. The point is that the administration is doign things to avoid either POW or civilian classififcations. IN other words, the government is saying that these captives are in a situation for which no laws exist regarding their rights and procedures. This is my issue... And, the Afghanistan war is over, I thought. Maybe they are POWar on Terror (which is indefinite) My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jdhill 0 #43 October 21, 2003 I don't think any US Citizen should be held w/o representation... As I stated before, there are big problems with the Patriot Act, and I don't necessarily agree with the way some of the the detainees are being held at Gitmo... If we are not going to charge them, then we should turn them over to their repsective governments, not just let them go. But I don't have a problem with the DC sniper suspects being charged with terrorism. JAll that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. - Edmund Burke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #44 October 21, 2003 QuoteEither put them on trial or let them go. It's that simple. Sounds right to me. Laws are only laws if they also apply to the people you don't like. The same goes for rights. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #45 October 21, 2003 I read that article three times and didn't see anything about our holding POWs from Afghanistan. Am I missing it? And, the headline is different from what Rumsfeld said. He didn't say the war was over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #46 October 21, 2003 QuoteThe point is that the administration is doign things to avoid either POW or civilian classififcations. IN other words, the government is saying that these captives are in a situation for which no laws exist regarding their rights and procedures. I agree with you on this. I have some problems with this administration's mission statement. Anyone know what it is? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #47 October 21, 2003 QuoteI don't think any US Citizen should be held w/o representation... Um, our guarantee is that no person will be held without representation. Citizen or not... My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #48 October 21, 2003 QuoteI would like you to show me ANY photographic evidence that we do not have the cleanest, most civil jails, prisons, or detention centers in the world. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could probably argue that things in Canadian Jails... or in quite a few other countries are far better than... to use the term from the movie "Office Space".. "federal pound them in the ass prison" Our prisons I would think would be far worse... than the nearly solitary confinement the people in Guantanamo are being held in...but I am sure some of our wonderfull ultra right wing posters would PREFER them to be subjected to the treatment so many men are treated to in our own prisons. Our Prisons are freaking nightmares.. but less so than in some places.. but they CERTAINLY are not the most humane in the world. Jeanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #49 October 21, 2003 Some how I don't think they'd fair too well in the general population of one of the US' maximum security prisons awaiting trial. -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #50 October 22, 2003 As mentioned in this thread, key problem is holding people in legal limbo. Not a good thing if you are supposed to defend democracy and human rights. I do not buy the "who cares - they are terrorists" argument. We do not know how many of these people actually are "terrorists". I recently saw a documentary on the BBC where they were interviewing a couple of Afghanis who just been sent home after nearly 18 month of being held by the Americans. One of the guys was a taxi driver who happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. That cost him 18 month of his live under very harsh conditions and no idea if and when he would be release. He received no apology or compensation… He told about the conditions, the initial small animal cages they were held in, that the light is on 24 hours a day etc. This combined with the uncertainty of not knowing what you are accused of and how long you are being detained borders torture IMO. I have no sympathies for terrorists what so ever, but this does not justify breaking all kinds of conventions and the US constitution. It is being made worse by that probably quite a few of these detainees are “small fish” or even bystanders that got caught up in this.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
