turtlespeed 226 #326 October 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteWell Wendy, since you asked for it, I guess this is not a comparisson whatsoever to Nazis. Y'know, it doesn't really matter what I write. You'll pick what you want from it. We cannot agree, and you probably think I'm either stupid or unpatriotic. Tough shit. I'm neither. In another post in this thread I think I addressed that. Not that it matters. I do not think that anyone in the US government is planning on building ovens and exterminating the prisoners of whatever who are being held in Guantanamo Bay. I do think that some members of the government are willing to abrogate their rights as humans to make their own ends easier. I think that's wrong wrong wrong. Just because a large number of them are, in fact, vile terrorists does not make our ignoring their human rights a good thing to do. When I was a child and hit my brother because he hit me first, my mother told me it was wrong to hit in retaliation. Defense yes, retaliation no. As a country, we should try to maintain our standards at what we think is right, rather than at what others have done to us. Wendy W. I am more than willing to bet that your mother had no idea that someone as ruthless and as violent as OBL or Saddam could even exist when she made that comment.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #327 October 28, 2003 QuoteI am more than willing to bet that your mother had no idea that someone as ruthless and as violent as OBL or Saddam could even exist when she made that comment. Come on. at what point does the eye for an eye become pointless... when the entire world is blind.. and in flames? There are many in the religeous right who are hoping for all they are worth to bring on the whole biblical end times that will allow all of them to be raptured and leave all the rest of humanity to suffer in a time of the tribulation. The whole my religeon is better than yours.. and I am going to heaven and all the rest of you are going to hell.. is causing far too much suffering in the world now. If you are indeed a christian.... since so many on the far right claim to be... think... just for once... about what christ taught.... what he came to earth to bring to humanity. Jeanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #328 October 28, 2003 >I am more than willing to bet that your mother had no idea that > someone as ruthless and as violent as OBL or Saddam could even > exist when she made that comment. Perhaps she had heard of Jack the Ripper, Benito Mussolini, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler or Joseph Goebbels. It would be hard to _not_ believe that someone like OBL could exist given that far worse people existed during the first part of the century. Believe it or not, we even had two _world_wars_ in the first half of the 20th century! I think the people who fought in them might understand violence and ruthlessness even better than you do. I find it odd that so many people think there was no terror and violence before 9/11. Heck, in 1996 terrorists tried to blow up the world trade center - and came close to succeeding. There was terror before 9/11 and there will be terror after it. The world hasn't changed; we're just more aware of it now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #329 October 28, 2003 Organized religion is simply a way to attempt to control mass amounts of people while at the same time making a few people very wealthy and very powerful. Religion as it was, was a good idea, religion as it is now is discraceful. In response to the eye for an eye comment. You gotta do what you gotta do. If you don't agree with it change it. Personally, it doesn't bother me that a few people that used to think they could defeat us, and thought that their religious beliefs condones murder of innocent people are being held somewhere away from guns and knives and explosives. The people that are there in Gitmo may still have information that might keep you or your parents or someone else dear to you from being blown up in the future. Silly me, I think that trying to get that information is a good thing.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #330 October 28, 2003 QuotePerhaps she had heard of Jack the Ripper, Benito Mussolini, Rudolf Hess, Heinrich Himmler or Joseph Goebbels. It would be hard to _not_ believe that someone like OBL could exist given that far worse people existed during the first part of the century. I reallllllly try hard not to use that analogy.... that you brought up in the thread about Godwins Law but the more I see of the current state of affairs in the world, THEIR beliefs are alive and well. They can justify great evil all in the name of.... just choose your buzzword of the moment.......still the same. Jeanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #331 October 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteWell Wendy, since you asked for it, I guess this is not a comparisson whatsoever to Nazis. Y'know, it doesn't really matter what I write. You'll pick what you want from it. We cannot agree, and you probably think I'm either stupid or unpatriotic. Tough shit. I'm neither. Wendy, I have not called you neither, nor implying that this is your writing, this is actually Kallend's post, in which he makes a clear comparisson as to the r-e-a-s-o-n-s for the "camps" were actually the same for Gitmo and Nazi's. His explanation went for the meaning of camps to "concentration" and "extermination", yet not for the actual comparisson, which is far but far from being the same, and being also within the same conditions. QuoteIn another post in this thread I think I addressed that. Not that it matters. Can you see my point? At least I see the Nigel respects that. Thank you Nigel. Turtle, when are we having a freaking beer?"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #332 October 28, 2003 >The people that are there in Gitmo may still have information that > might keep you or your parents or someone else dear to you from > being blown up in the future. Silly me, I think that trying to get that > information is a good thing. And arrested drug users may know who their suppliers are, and that info could save children from horrible addictions. Killers may know who sold them their guns, and that information might save the next victim of an illegal arms dealer. An arrested organized-crime kingpin might know lots about organized crime, and that information could help topple a massive crime syndicate. Yet all those people retain their rights until proven guilty, because the constitution of the united states is the law of the land. Even so, police, DA's and agents are quite good at getting that information out of them while remaining within the law - and some of those people are a lot more evil than terrorists. Why would we give a man who raped and murdered a 14 year old girl, and is awaiting trial, more rights than we give someone who _might_ have been involved with selling someone a passport who fled the country after 9/11? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #333 October 28, 2003 Perhaps it is because they attacked a Nation, not an individual or small group of people. They attacked, and condemned the very principles that you are supposing we should allow them to participate in. They didn't like it then, but I bet they would welcome it now. Too late in my mind. They had their chance. Like I said before. Let them all be scattered amoung the general populations of the state and federal maximum security prisons, give them all thier own individual public defender and see what happens. That course of action I would welcome.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #334 October 28, 2003 >Perhaps it is because they attacked a Nation, not an individual or > small group of people. They attacked, and condemned the very > principles that you are supposing we should allow them to > participate in. Who did? Our enemies in WWII, or the terrorists? Not following you here. >Let them all be scattered amoung the general populations of the > state and federal maximum security prisons, give them all thier own >individual public defender and see what happens. Yep. I hope that (or something like that) happens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #335 October 28, 2003 Our enemies in WWII, or the terrorists? Not following you here. *** Are they so different? WWII - people senselessly killed for religious beliefs - antisemitism(sp?) Terrorists - People senselessly killed for religious beliefs - Anti Americanism **I am using Americanism as though it is the melting pot, not your political views**I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,118 #336 October 28, 2003 >Are they so different? I don't think they are. We treated WWII prisoners under the rules of the Geneva Convention, though, so I assume our government thinks that terrorists are quite different from POW's. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #337 October 28, 2003 QuoteI'lll give it a shot.... Could be to avoid possible rescue situation in a more free mainland, or having someone drive a truck, or car near a prison and blow it up, to seek this same rescue. Hmmm, don't think the U.S. can defend a camp that size.. IN the states? On a millitary or Naval base? I wonder what type of rescue attempts would be made here that couldn't be made there. QuoteTo avoid an easy way of passing perhaps vital terrorist network information, and having the cells all over the world who is detained and who is not, thus having them second guess them, maybe they have some terrorist that have knowledge to put an A-bomb together, and who is in fact willing, and happy to use it, so if they are in main land, then it seems a lot easier to pass this info, through lawyers, family visits, etc.... Seems to me, if you keep a man in a hole with a bag over his head, he aint' going to be leaking any info to anyone... be-he in Cuba, or in the states. That dude that can build an A-bomb... think he'll ever see a trial? lol. You mention the lawyers... no chance of him seeing one in cuba, but he might here in the states... interesting how you throw our points at us Juane. Do you understand that this man has a right to a lawyer? You've decided in a post to SkyDekker that the constitution does not apply to these people by using the quote "We the people" thinking somehow that these rights are an American thing... you know the part where it says "All men are created equal?"... what of that? You know, I could watch a man kill another man... I'd still protest if he didn't get a fair trial. let's face it, if such a man existed in camp x-ray, he'd of been killed a long time ago. I actually find myself wondering if the secrecy and placement of this camp is so that when the smoke clears, no one will have any idea how to perform a head count? How many prisonners were there? QuoteJust to name few. They have given them at least a chance to live while the govt. try to sort things out. The tone of this implies that you think they are lucky to get even that! QuoteI prefer in this case to give the Govt the benefit of the law, the executive officer of the nation, was elected and I would assume he is there to serve "we the people" and not "we the terrorists" Granted check and balances are always needed. ROFLMAO!! Did you mean to say 'benefit of the doubt'? I laugh because you said "Law" instead. Oh, my. Surely you see the humour? That you say give the Govt the benefit of the law... when it's their benefit of not having to follow any laws that most are protesting in this thread? My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #338 October 28, 2003 QuoteI actually find myself wondering if the secrecy and placement of this camp is so that when the smoke clears, no one will have any idea how to perform a head count? How many prisonners were there? Interesting thought.... US says it doesn't know how many detainees in Cuba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #339 October 28, 2003 QuoteThe situation is compounded by international law and by the Geneva Convention itself. As I've mentioned before on this forum, those caught in a battlezone while wearing civilian clothes or friendly uniforms are subject to summary execution. That ain't me, that's the 4th Geneva Convention. That the Gitmo detainees have been quarantined rather than summarily shot says a lot about US restraint. Mark, that is a great little story. You are just missing one little point. Who did the US declare war on? Hence, what uniform could they have been wearing? I'll make it easy for you, even though I know it is not necessary for you. They declared war on terrorism. A terrorists' uniform is generally civillian clothing. Hence, your little story about the execution under the geneva convention doesn't hold true. QuoteIt doesn't, however, solve the problem of what to do with the ragheads. I am truly sorry to see that you have joined the ranks of the people who have to resort to these terms. I really did have more respect for you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #340 October 28, 2003 QuoteQuoteI actually find myself wondering if the secrecy and placement of this camp is so that when the smoke clears, no one will have any idea how to perform a head count? How many prisonners were there? Interesting thought.... US says it doesn't know how many detainees in Cuba "The memory hole"... hehe, I like the sounds of that. You see? This is exactly my point! Who knows, when all is said and done, it may even turn out to be: U.S. Official: "What prisonners?" [looks around real koy] "I haven't seen any prisonners, have you seen any prisonners?" Yank Soldier: "Who me? I didn't see any prisonners." lol My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #341 October 28, 2003 Quote Yank Soldier: "Who me? I didn't see any prisonners." lol May be you could have substituted "yank" with: jarhead, squid, grunt, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #342 October 28, 2003 QuoteMay be you could have substituted "yank" with: jarhead, squid, grunt, etc. Why bother.. he got his post across elegantly... with one word it does not matter it reflects on ALL Americans. Our childrens children will be paying for the mistakes of the current edicts of the leadership in Washington. Jeanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #343 October 29, 2003 So you approve of derogatory terms for Americans now? QuoteOur childrens children will be paying for the mistakes of the current edicts of the leadership in Washington. And at this rate we might just be able to pay for them too. Everyone and every administaration makes mistakes. Probably a good thing - If they were perfect you'd have noone to critciseI'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #344 October 29, 2003 No our fellow former NAVY type American used the terms... not me... and the Canadian used Yank.... QuoteIf they were perfect you'd have noone to critcise And the average of 4 young men are paying with thier lives every week now.. and those are not the sons of the rich who are paying.. the little George Bush and Dan Quayle find creative ways to serve rather than actually putting THEIR asses on the line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #345 October 29, 2003 QuoteWhy bother.. he got his post across elegantly... with one word it does not matter it reflects on ALL Americans. Sounds like an advocation to me.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #346 October 29, 2003 I guess its lost in the translation from English to Texican Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #347 October 29, 2003 QuoteSo you approve of derogatory terms for Americans now? "Yank" is no derogatory term for an American my friend... Look to your New York baseball team the Yankees? Edited to say: I just did a little research... Oxford English Dictionary says the source of the word is "unascertained." There are a whole bunch of loose explanations all over the net though: -This supposedly was a derogatory nickname bestowed on the Dutch by the Germans and the Flemish in the 1600s -The English later applied the term to Dutch pirates, and later still Dutch settlers in New York applied it to English settlers in Connecticut, who were known for their piratical trading practices -Southerners used Yankee pejoratively to describe Northerners during the Civil War, but found themselves, along with all other Americans, called thus by the English during world wars I and II. Hehe, looks like it may have been a derogatory term but You Yanks eventually accepted it it... looks just like the case of "The black man can call the other black man N*gga... but I'd sure as hell better not" "Yankee doodle went to town, riding on a Pony." My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shark 0 #348 October 29, 2003 Quote"Yank" is no derogatory term for an American my friend... Look to your New York baseball team the Yankees? Yeah, kinda like the Washington Redskins, right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #349 October 29, 2003 Or the Kansas City Chiefs, or the Fightin' Whities, or . . .I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiverRick 0 #350 October 30, 2003 Our childrens children will be paying for the mistakes of the current edicts of the leadership in Washington. Jeanne And benefiting from their successes. never pull low......unless you are Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
