kallend 2,146 #76 October 22, 2003 QuoteQuoteI would like you to show me ANY photographic evidence that we do not have the cleanest, most civil jails, prisons, or detention centers in the world Well we have to.. we have the most people in prison. They are all brand new because the rate of incarceration is ever increasing. It seems that finding the root cause of crime or rehabilitation has taken a back seat to "getting tough on crime" for the sake of politics. Something else has to be done to stop the increasing rate of incarceration because the current scheme isn't working. 2 million people are currently in the US prison system. This is higher than any other country including Russia and China, one a country emerging from totalitarian rule and the other still under totalitarian rule. I'm not saying get rid of jails or set them all free, that's ridiculous. But something has to be done. When a system doesn't work you need to change it. This would appear to contradict the assertion on the wonderful quality of US jails.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #77 October 22, 2003 >i hate to sound cruel or cold. but I could give a flying fuck what > happens to those pukes. Someday those pukes may be US soldiers arrested for war crimes in another country, tortured and held forever without a trial. You may even know them. We will, of course, try to get them released, but because of the precedents we ourselves have set, we'll have little luck. I think you'll give a flying fuck then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #78 October 22, 2003 That is the exception to the rule. Not the rule itself. I didn't see any documentation linked to that incident either.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jib 0 #79 October 22, 2003 QuoteSomeday those pukes may be US soldiers arrested for war crimes in another country, tortured and held forever without a trial. So, are you saying they are prisoners of war? -------------------------------------------------- the depth of his depravity sickens me. -- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #80 October 22, 2003 'Come on. These are people that were trying to kill our people.' And thats the problem, you don't know that and can't say that about each person there. Why? because they have not been found guilty. Why? Because they are denied fair due process. Sure go hard on terrorists, but make sure the people you have really are terrorists. As for torture, no it shouldn't be used. However, amnesty international condemed the interrogation of PIRA members captured in NI as torture. I'd disagree stringent tactical questioning is not a problem. Medevil torture is and theres no excuse for it.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #81 October 22, 2003 >So, are you saying they are prisoners of war? Who? The Guantanamo Bay people? I think they're either prisoners of war or regular people arrested for terrorism. If they are the first case, treat them as we agreed to do under the Geneva accords. If they are the second case, put them on trial, convict them, and imprison/execute them (or release them if they are found to be not guilty.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
firediver 0 #82 October 22, 2003 Ok, my two cents........ The US was traditionally off limits to attack by middle eastern terror groups over the past four decades. If they attacked US soil, they would ruin the ability they had to run freely throughout the US and even hold anti american annual conventions thoughout the eighties and nineties in which they planned terrorist strikes against US interests off US soil. The rest of the world has been, and is still, open game for terror groups. September 2001 changed the rules, we became a member of the world target list here on US soil. We are the biggest superpower on the planet, plain and simple. We do not claim to have a perfect plan for dealing with these issues, but we have the plan we are going to use. It has flaws, and these flaws will occasionally cause people who are innocent, to be caught up in the situation. It is truly an unfortunate fact. However, if attacked, we will react with great force, because we can. We have the ability to eradicate any country on the face of the earth if we so choose, but we do not. Other governments have tried to accomplish this, and primarily failed due to our interventions. We aren't perfect...but we aren't stupid either. We know that we must use methods that we had not previously used...and so we should. That's just the way this world is.....to put it simply, ..we may be the best friends you might ever have, or the worst enemy...so don't piss us off. Skydiving isn't scary;...but clowns...CLOWNS are scary! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #83 October 22, 2003 QuoteOk, my two cents........ The US was traditionally off limits to attack by middle eastern terror groups over the past four decades. If they attacked US soil, they would ruin the ability they had to run freely throughout the US and even hold anti american annual conventions thoughout the eighties and nineties in which they planned terrorist strikes against US interests off US soil. The rest of the world has been, and is still, open game for terror groups. September 2001 changed the rules, we became a member of the world target list here on US soil. We are the biggest superpower on the planet, plain and simple. We do not claim to have a perfect plan for dealing with these issues, but we have the plan we are going to use. It has flaws, and these flaws will occasionally cause people who are innocent, to be caught up in the situation. It is truly an unfortunate fact. However, if attacked, we will react with great force, because we can. We have the ability to eradicate any country on the face of the earth if we so choose, but we do not. Other governments have tried to accomplish this, and primarily failed due to our interventions. We aren't perfect...but we aren't stupid either. We know that we must use methods that we had not previously used...and so we should. That's just the way this world is.....to put it simply, ..we may be the best friends you might ever have, or the worst enemy...so don't piss us off. Wow... That's it, just 'wow'. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #84 October 22, 2003 Um, February 26, 1993 ring a bell? Ramsey Yousef and Mohammed Salameh? Bombing the WTC on US Soil? Their rules changed long ago. Our rules should not. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #85 October 22, 2003 Well, some people here are more concerned about the poor terrorists, and the actions taken to defend US soil. The freedom enjoyed once here has been in jeopardy since the terrorist used it to benefit their plans, so now, that we need to stop it, some bitch about it, and try to blame all the world ills to the US. What was that empathy about the murder of so many people, innocent ones, that once was said, the world would help in doing so? Some here trying to imply that US soldiers have always been treated with basic human rights when they have become POW's, in the meantime, even in vietnam, the VC got evac from harm, and medically treated, now we are monsters because we want information and leave the possibility that other terrorists use the same tactics in getting hostages to release their borthers in arms. So keep them there, and as someone here stated, if they make mistakes, then there are the cases where they were returned home. And Phil, the one missing the point is you, as for a citizen you can sent a letter or call your rep and bitch all you want, about legalizing your drugs as well as asking for better treatment of these people you so much care about."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #86 October 22, 2003 >The US was traditionally off limits to attack by middle eastern terror groups . . . What? Did you forget about the 1993 attempts to destroy the World Trade Center? They killed six people and injured over 1000. They were trying to knock it down, according to later reports. >September 2001 changed the rules . . .. It didn't change a damn thing other than wake some people up. Do you really believe that one terrorist act changed anything? Was 9/11 more of a big deal that a civil war that divided the country in two? The constitution endured that. Was it more significant than a world war in which the US itself was attacked and tens of millions died? The constitution survived that. Was it more significant than the cold war, during which two countries had the power not to just destroy a few buildings, but every one of our major cities? The constitution survived that. Was it more significant than a years-long proxy war against communism that we couldn't win, and which took the lives of tens of thousands of US soldiers? It survived that too. The constitution is the center of our strength as a nation, and will endure despite all the above events. It has endured far worse; it will endure worse in the future. > We have the ability to eradicate any country on the face of the earth > if we so choose, but we do not. Other governments have tried to > accomplish this, and primarily failed due to our interventions. We survived the cold war with the USSR not because we were strong, or because they were weak, but because we were wise enough to NOT use our weapons of mass destruction, and employ diplomacy instead. Fortunately they were also wise enough to choose that path. >We know that we must use methods that we had not previously >used...and so we should. No, we will continue to follow the constitution, because it is the law of the land, and it has served us well for over 200 years now. It will endure despite people who think the sky is falling, and that today is so much worse than any other time that we must discard the constitution in favor of a police state - for our own protection, of course. I think Franklin said it best: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." It's as true today as it was 200 years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #87 October 22, 2003 >The freedom enjoyed once here has been in jeopardy since >the terrorist used it to benefit their plans . . . It's not in jeopardy at all unless a misguided government _puts_ it in jeopardy. >Some here trying to imply that US soldiers have always been treated >with basic human rights when they have become POW's . . . They have _seldom_ been treated with basic human rights - that's why we support the Geneva accords, in hopes that they will be treated better. If we don't do the same with prisoners we capture, the future outlook for our soldiers is pretty bleak. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #88 October 22, 2003 Quotesome people here are more concerned about the poor terrorists I am not concerned particularly with the comfort of individual terrorists. I am concerned about whether my country is willing to overlook what have been defined as the rules because it's expedient. Who knows when someone like me, or like you, will piss them off? QuoteThe freedom enjoyed once here has been in jeopardy since the terrorist used it to benefit their plans There has always been danger in the US. We are not immune, and we are part of the world. The Oklahoma City bombing was a terrorist attack that resulted in no changes in how we treat suspects/prisoners of war. In American history, children are sometimes taught that the Spanish American war was started in part by rabble rousing ("Remember the Maine" was the cry from all of the newspapers). That was seen as a crass manipulation of the US people. Why exactly is this different? 9/11 was awful. But it's not inherently different from Oklahoma City, from the movie theater in Russia, or any number of other terrorist attacks. The US is part of the world. No one has implied or said that US soldiers have always been treated decently. You might infer that, but trust me, no one has implied it. In my world, you treat people the right way because it's right. We have defined right according to our constitution and focus on human rights. That's what makes America the land of the free. Not our guns. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,465 #89 October 22, 2003 QuoteThat is the exception to the rule. Not the rule itself. I didn't see any documentation linked to that incident either. Turtlespeed, you were the one stating a claim, hence you should be the one providing proof for that claim. You have to prove it valid, not have other prove it invalid. Maybe in your research it will open your eyes to things outside of the US. The cleanest, most civilised jails in the world. You make me laugh. I'll even point you in the direction of the country you could look to. The Netherlands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #90 October 22, 2003 QuoteThe freedom enjoyed once here has been in jeopardy since the terrorist used it to benefit their plans, so now, that we need to stop it, some bitch about it, and try to blame all the world ills to the US. Terrorists cannot stop our freedoms. Only our government can. Bill has spoken about the Constitution surviving in other times worse than this. Well, the Constitution was actually tattered in those times. Lincoln suspended the writ of habeus corpus, if I remember correctly. Also, we interred Japanese in WWII. The Japanese internment was regarded as one of our great tragedies. In the future, our actions with these suspected terrorists will be regarded in similar fashion. I had hoped history would have taught our leaders a lesson. THey are not readin hard enough. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #91 October 22, 2003 There was a little difference with the oklahoma Bombing and 9/11, and it was that they found no evidence a terrorist organization, was behind it as it was in 9/11. And guns, have since their invention, procured freedom. The only place I can only think in which peace triumphed, was in India, by Ghandi, being peaceful, it was the only instance where it has worked, it could also apply to the civil rights movements of the 60's as well. But guns do have a major role in all mankind freedom fights.....don't pretend they have not."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #92 October 22, 2003 >Well, the Constitution was actually tattered in those times. Lincoln > suspended the writ of habeus corpus, if I remember correctly. Also, > we interred Japanese in WWII. Good point. It survived in the end, though, and we (I hope) learned from our mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #93 October 22, 2003 well, it is not in the same light we are actually not taking US citizens to those camps, we are actually importing them from the main source of terrorist concentrations as far as I can remember."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #94 October 22, 2003 >well, it is not in the same light we are actually not taking US citizens to those camps . . . Do a search on Jose Padilla. They ARE holding US citizens. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #95 October 22, 2003 Jerry, One more thing, I do agree with you the current course of action is not the best nor following some sort of convention. But what you say that terrorist did not cripple our freedoms, they have, like it or not. We now will have suspicion about any person wearing a turban next to us in a plane, and probably be more paranoid about calling the police for the suspicion of terrorist activity than before, it has made a big difference on the way we see life, and if you think that the very people that cry about the constitutional rights being trampled, are the ones that will bitch about lack of security. So I would suggest to bring forward intelligent alternatives to a problem created by terrorism, I do not want another family member blown when taking a flight for vacations, and will do whatever necessary on my part to make sure I can protect this land and people, my family to the threat of those fanatics, whatever price I may have to pay."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #96 October 22, 2003 He is not there, he is here.....still incommunicated, but here."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #97 October 22, 2003 Quote'Come on. These are people that were trying to kill our people.' And thats the problem, you don't know that and can't say that about each person there. Why? because they have not been found guilty. Why? Because they are denied fair due process. Sure go hard on terrorists, but make sure the people you have really are terrorists. As for torture, no it shouldn't be used. However, amnesty international condemed the interrogation of PIRA members captured in NI as torture. I'd disagree stringent tactical questioning is not a problem. Medevil torture is and theres no excuse for it. Don't you think that you should find out what these people are there for before you jump behind them and support them? I also don't remember seeing a rack or Iron Maiden anywhere it the story.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #98 October 22, 2003 QuoteWe now will have suspicion about any person wearing a turban next to us in a plane, Speak for yourself. Please dont assume we all are racists (or maybe would you prefer religionist if you feel hurt being called racist).Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #99 October 22, 2003 Quotewell, it is not in the same light we are actually not taking US citizens to those camps, we are actually importing them from the main source of terrorist concentrations as far as I can remember. Yasser Esam Hamdi, 22, born in Louisiana held at camp XRay. There are 43 different nation's citizens being held there. And as was pointed out above, the constitution states clearly that all people, not just US citizens have these rights. Why exactly did we form this nation in the first place? Let's take a look at our Declaration: -We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights does not say us citizens Ironically, it was another George this is referring to. He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary powers. He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries. He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance. Patriot Act, homeland security, etc. He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil power. For depriving us, in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury: For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences: Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 226 #100 October 22, 2003 Was it convienient for you to leave out the first paragraph, or it just didn't fit to your argument?I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
