wmw999 2,588 #51 October 31, 2003 The fact that Saddam is evil doesn't make people who don't like Saddam good. Saddam was a bad man. A terrible ruler. What he did to his sons was unspeakable; even more so than what he did to his people. But his having killed more people doesn't make it OK for us to have only been involved in the deaths of 4500. It might even have been unavoidable. But it's not OK. Any more than it's OK for us to have an average of a US soldier a day dying now, and 10% of those possibly being suicides. Just because there is what's seen as a greater good doesn't make studying the methods of achieving it worth studying or changing. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #52 October 31, 2003 Hey quade, I would argue that that is an old and out dated statement. Actually power, food (open markets) and water have been restored to 96% of Bahgdad for more than 4 weeks now. Hmmm funny, you didn't see that reported on CBS, NBC, ABC, or CNN did you. Actually the oil is starting to flow again and civility is beginning to take place. When you watch the news at night and see (reletively) small groups of people protesting in the streets of Iraq against the US or demanding THEY (The people) want more power in their own country... Did you ever stop and think... WOW 8 months ago this wasn't possible for the people of Iraq. They couldn't protest... No, you didn't. You saw the negative anti-american groups you wanted to see. Just like the ones you belong to. (Ohh did I say that out loud?? Shit, sorry) No, it is OK... don't give any credit to the US that we have enabled these people to speak out, to let their voices be heard, even if we don't like what they are saying... It's OK, I know who did it, who help, who supported, who cared. And I know it wasn't you. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zinger 0 #53 October 31, 2003 You can study Saddam for another 20 years as he killed another million people. G.W changed it/him and the change was overdue. ------Have a good one!-------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejersey 0 #54 October 31, 2003 QuoteWhat he did to his sons was unspeakable; even more so than what he did to his people. Yeah. Pretty terrible to live nonstop on hookers and have your own private army of tortuous henchmen. That and all the cars, money and cocaine. Definately worse than the torture of a minority muslin sect or being gassed to death. Poor kids. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #55 October 31, 2003 I have very close ties to the United Nations, and your 96% is very FAR from ACCURATE... just so you know. I don't know the specific percentage, and judging from your quoteless statement, you don't either... Edited to correct below... Power water food may have been restored to Baghdad... (I still believe the number is high), but that is one city in a country of many cities that, probably 96% of which, were greatly damaged in the war. Many of these cities don't have a these basic amenities restored. 96% of Baghdad really isn't that impressive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BBKid 0 #56 October 31, 2003 Just to follow up, Baghdad and Iraq aren't interchangeable terms. The majority of Iraqis are still living without the basics, and there doesn't seem to be any real hurry by any of the occupying forces - US, British, Australian, or whoever - to rectify this situation. Nick --------------------------- "I've pierced my foot on a spike!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #57 October 31, 2003 >Hmmm funny, you didn't see that reported on CBS, NBC, ABC, or > CNN did you. Actually the oil is starting to flow again and civility is > beginning to take place. You might want to actually read those sources once in a while, rather than just guessing. It makes it way too easy to prove you wrong. http://new.wset.com/news/stories/1003/106345.html http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/09/14/cnna.powell.baghdad/ http://www.msnbc.com/news/981164.asp >Did you ever stop and think... WOW 8 months ago this wasn't >possible for the people of Iraq. They couldn't protest... You do realize we have shot protesters there, right? I mean, they may not have reported it on FOX, but it is worthwhile to keep up to date on stuff like that if you're going to post about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,588 #58 October 31, 2003 He turned his children, who started out as innocent and precious as any other, into monsters. That's incredibly awful, even if he didn't think it was. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #59 October 31, 2003 Quote Hey quade, I would argue that that is an old and out dated statement. Maybe, then again, you might want to have a look at ReliefWeb just to get some independent confirmations on the status of the issues. I still maintain these people are pretty pissed off and have some pretty good reasons to be pissed off. Not only that, they don't want our help. In fact, they're so f'ed up at this point they're lashing out at the international aid people around the world are trying to give them. As you might recall, they recently drove an ambulance filled with explosives into the headquarters of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad. (1) I don't know about you, but I'd have to be pretty messed up and pissed off to do that. QuoteWhen you watch the news at night and see (reletively) small groups of people protesting in the streets of Iraq against the US or demanding THEY (The people) want more power in their own country... Did you ever stop and think... WOW 8 months ago this wasn't possible for the people of Iraq. They couldn't protest... Did it ever occur to you that it is NOT the responsibility of the U.S. to provide this type of "service" to change the "freedoms" enjoyed by other countries? Or perhaps the "liberation" of the people of Iraq is maybe a smokescreen for a failed foreign policy by the Administration and a distraction from from the failed original intent of "regime change" in Iraq to begin with? As I recall, the Administration had been talking about finding weapons of mass destruction. Failing that, we've apparently restated our goals. Quote No, you didn't. You saw the negative anti-american groups you wanted to see. Just like the ones you belong to. (Ohh did I say that out loud?? Shit, sorry) Yes, you're right of course. I -must- be a terrorist if I don't agree with you or the Administration. Yeah, that's a great point you have there. Then again, the people of Iraq get to protest and you think that's a good sign, so I must be doing something correct here as well.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #60 October 31, 2003 QuoteAs you might recall, they recently drove an ambulance filled with explosives into the headquarters of the International Committee of the Red Cross in Baghdad. (1) So, tim McVay I guess represents all americans when he and his cronies blew up the FBI Building. Do you see your logic here? A few outcasts probably not even Iraqies blow shit up and suddenly the whole country must hate that we helped them. So you arguement then would be since OBL is from Saudi Arabia, he represents all the saudies, and therefore we can go over there and kill all of them... hmmm probably a good idea!!! QuoteYes, you're right of course. I -must- be a terrorist if I don't agree with you or the Administration. NO Paul you said terrorist...NOT me. I said anti-american and that is what you are. Yo udon't have to like GWB, or Clinton to be a good american. But it is people like you that hate america, and want to change it. People like you that want to create a secular and socialistic society and want to forget why we left Europe in the first place. We are not France or England or Canada or Germany thank GOD. We get a lot flack from Europe, and a lot of people over there don't like us... Oh fucking well... What don't the like, the Judeo-christian philosophy we were founded on or that we won't switch over to the Euro too. We are not Europe, we are not socialist nation, we are nopt a secular nation. We a republic founded by God fearing men who didn't need federal social programs to help the country survive. We are a group of people who are willing to stuggle and succeed and maintane our great nation... No matter what the morons on the other side of the pond think... You like socialism and gvernment bailouts???? MOVE ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #61 October 31, 2003 Quote I said anti-american and that is what you are. Yo udon't have to like GWB, or Clinton to be a good american. But it is people like you that hate america, and want to change it. People like you that want to create a secular and socialistic society and want to forget why we left Europe in the first place. I really -don't- follow your logic. How is anything I've said or quoted anti-American? Hey, I -LOVE- the United States of America and don't construe anything I've ever said as otherwise. That said, there are certain issues that need to be addressed and certain actions of the Administration that are, to my way of thinking, totally incomprehensible, but that has nothing to do with my love of the country. I totally agree with the First Amendment and all of the previously accepted court rulings on Freedom of Religion. Where have you ever seen me say anything otherwise? Do I agree with all religions? No. But as long as nobody is trying to force me to believe or behave a certain way, their religion is their own business and I simply do not care. Further, stop putting words in my mouth. When have I ever said anything about creating a socialistic society? Where the heck did you get THAT from? Finally, I don't know about you, but my ancestors came to this country many, many years ago. I was born here. I never left Europe because of religious persecution and I don't believe my ancestors did either. I believe they did come here because it was the land of opportunity. A level playing field where hard working people didn't have to live in squaller or be starved due to a lack of food. They fought very hard to get some basic and simple rights in the work place. Rights that you now enjoy; a 40 hour work week, decent pay for a day worked and medical coverage. As for government bailouts . . . who do you think gets the lion's share of government bailouts; the people or companies?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,116 #62 October 31, 2003 >But it is people like you that hate america, and want to change it. People have been changing the US for years. Do you claim that Lincoln hated america because he wanted to change the constitution to prohibit slavery? Did Martin Luther King hate america because he wanted to change society? A lot of people claimed just that. >People like you that want to create a secular and socialistic society . . We HAVE a secular and socialist society. Secular means "Not specifically relating to religion or to a religious body." Our constitution says we are just that. We do NOT pass laws that favor, support or condemn any religion. Socialist means that the government plans, creates and distributes products to people. Medicare is just that. Public roads and sewers are another form of socialism. We are far less socialist than other countries, but we also recognize that in some cases (like, say, roads) it's better to have the governmenr run things. >and want to forget why we left Europe in the first place. You might want to remember that we based our consitution on a British document, and that we share a lot in common with the Europeans who founded the US. We rejected what we didn't like, but we kept a _lot._ >You like socialism and gvernment bailouts???? MOVE Move to any disaster area, perhaps, where the government will bail you out. Move and get a job with an airline, and watch the government bail out your industry. Or just stay there and get old, and watch Medicare provide for your medical needs. We have socialism here. Our strength is that we use it where it's appropriate (like having a highway system) and use capitalism in other places (like airlines, food production, and tech development.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #63 November 1, 2003 Hey all you lefties AMERICA.. Love it or Leave it.... Sorry it must be a horrible flashback or something I could have SWORN I was back in 1970 at the University of Wisconsin.. getting tear gassed that spring when I went to visit a friend who went there. This time.. we dont have a closeted transvite for an FBI director interested in the sexual antics of EVERYONE so he could use the dirt... we have something FAR worse. An Attorney General who is out to do HIS gods work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #64 November 1, 2003 This is in the news today (not on Fox I guess ) The following is from the BBC web site. As the smoke clears over the next 12 month there might be a lot of "dirt" that will come to light. My guess is still he will be a 1 term Pres: Quote Iraq contracts 'won by Bush donors' Many of the US firms which won lucrative Iraqi reconstruction contracts are major donors to President George W Bush's political campaigns, according to a new report. The report, by pressure group the Centre for Public Integrity (CPI), claims that most of the contractors gave more money to Mr Bush's 2000 presidential campaign than to any other in the last 10 years. The report covers 70 companies and individuals who between them have won reconstruction contracts in Afghanistan and Iraq worth up to $8bn (£4.8bn). According to the CPI, these firms and individuals have made political donations worth at least $49m since 1990. Of the $49m, $12.7m went to Mr Bush's Republican Party, against $7.1m for the Democrats. Network The report also drew attention to extensive links between the companies and the US government and military. It claimed that 60% of the firms employed people who have worked for previous US governments, members of Congress, or the US army. CPI executive director Charles Lewis said the contracting process in Iraq and Afghanistan was surrounded by "a stench of political favouritism and cronyism". The CPI report looks set to stir up fresh controversy over the allocation of reconstruction contracts. So far, critics have focused in particular on a decision to award one of the biggest Iraqi contracts to oil firm Halliburton, formerly run by US vice president Dick Cheney. But the US army engineering corps and the US Agency for International Development - the bodies jointly responsible for allocating contracts - rejected any suggestion of favouritism. "We have made sure that it is not politically motivated," a USAID spokesperson told Reuters. --------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #65 November 1, 2003 Quoteok - lets go for another round: What do you define as libertarian/left/moderately left/extreme left? i'm really curious I have no idea what libertarian/left is. I do have views about what moderatly/left and extreme/left are, but those views wouldn't be intersesting to read since they probably aren't very original. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SublimeBreeze 0 #66 November 1, 2003 Gdub is Satan reincarnated if you cannot see this then you are blind! I pity your landings! Mwahaha Down with Gdub Sean Sean Sean In Thailand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #67 November 1, 2003 Quote A few outcasts probably not even Iraqies blow shit up and suddenly the whole country must hate that we helped them. http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/31/sprj.irq.main/index.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3232613.stm Boy, sure am glad you did your homework and it really is only a few folks that are pissed off at us. Thanks for keeping me up to date.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
