RoysPlayThing 0 #1 November 6, 2003 Being an amature in the Skydiving Adventures, but wanting so badly to join in and get my training to head towards FF, I would like some opinions on the recent situations of Canopy Collisions. From talk with Roy and other Skydiving friends, "Canopy Collisions" were not happening as often. I am a little nervous as to what has been causing the increase in these accidents (if anything has) and would like to know opinions on how to avoid them better; should I become a permanent Skydiver. Why is all this happening lately? .... Are people getting too confortable? Wondering if I should follow my other adventure sport interests like; Rock Climbing, Or Scuba Diving _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 November 6, 2003 Its a brain fart issue, usually. Someone didn't see someone else, etc. I wouldn't say that they've become more common, just that we're hearing about them more. Rock climbing and scuba diving are freak'n worthless when compared to skydiving, IMHO.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #3 November 6, 2003 Yes worthless compared to Skydiving, I agree.... but not compared to death. Still I believe worth the risk,.. don't get me wrong. _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #4 November 6, 2003 Don't leave us now!! You need to get yourself on an airplane and see if you still want to do these other adventure sports... don't think so maybe on the side though, when the weather is no good for skydiving. Anyways.. about the canopy collisions.. I think bigger planes, bigger formations and as stated above: brainfarts.. for a couple of seconds you don't pay attention and there it is... It is very important to know where everybody else is when flying your canopy. Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #5 November 6, 2003 Is it easy to see everybody else? .. BTW, I'm not planning on leaving until I have a good enough reason.. lol _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,092 #6 November 6, 2003 > I am a little nervous as to what has been causing the increase in > these accidents (if anything has) and would like to know opinions on > how to avoid them better; should I become a permanent Skydiver. This may be better asked on the safety and training board, but I'll answer it here as well. 1) Faster canopies mean that people have less time to react before a collision. Just as on a highway, you have to give people more room to react when your vehicle (in this case, a canopy) goes faster. 2) There are more DZ's with larger airplanes (Otters) and that means more people in the air at once. 3) In many places hook turns are now almost the standard way to land; hook turners have less visibility, and are less likely to fly a predictable, repeatable pattern, than jumpers landing straight in. 4) Freeflying adds another wrinkle because if care is not taken, exit separation can get adversely affected. This increases the odds of canopy collisions shortly after opening. How to prevent them: -Give good exit separation on jump run. Learn how to determine how much time to leave between groups, and figure out what the safest exit order is (i.e. large RW, small RW, freefly, AFF, tandem.) -Learn to track flat and far at breakoff. This helps reduce the odds you will have a collision after opening with someone in your own group. -As your canopy is opening, learn to steer it with both your body and the risers. This will give you the ability to avoid someone even before your canopy is fully open. -Look around! I think that 90% of collisions happen because people just plain don't see each other. Don't fixate on the target, or hazards, or even another canopy. Keep looking all over the entire time you're under canopy. -Make noise. If you holler and shout, people will hear you coming. And if other people make noise you'll hear them. This works especially well if you're near someone who doesn't see you. -Acknowledge seeing other people. The usual signal is to kick your legs. If you do that, it means the other person knows you see them and can go back to looking around. -Fly a predictable pattern. Most DZ's have a set pattern (i.e. a left-hand pattern when the wind's out of the north.) This helps ensure you are in a predictable place when you're getting ready to land. -Learn to flat turn and flare turn. Many people either toggle turn at 50 feet and break themselves or collide with other people because they don't know how to turn their canopies at low altitude. A good flat turn can turn you 90 degrees at 50 feet and still land you safely. -After you land, collapse your canopy and watch for other people landing. I've seen a lot of collisions happen just as people were touching down or shortly afterwards. If someone is going to pass near you, STAND STILL! Jumpers can safely land near obstacles only if they're not moving around. If a collision is imminent, move to avoid it. Dropping down is probably the best way to get out of the way, to avoid the "I went left but then she went left at the same time" sort of problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #7 November 6, 2003 The increase in canopy collisions can also be attributed to the fact that people are flying much faster canopys these days. This reduces the amount of time to deal with traffic problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #8 November 6, 2003 There's been three incidents this year where somebody swooping has colided with with somebody else, and at least one of them dieing. Lake Wales in the Spring, Roger Nelson in the summer, and aparently a guy colided with his fiancee last week. I understand he passed away and she's scraping by. As more people are getting into swooping, this will become more and more common, unfortunately. Dropzones NEED to separate their swooping traffic from the non-swoopers, at least. It is unnaceptable for swoopers and those flying big conservative canopies to be sharing the same airspace. Volkeswagon Beetles don't run in Formula one races, after all... Big DZ's like Perris have their swoop pond far away from the main landing area, which is far away from the student landing area. This is ideal. At the very least, DZ's should have a "swoop lane" that non-swoopers know to avoid. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #9 November 6, 2003 At the very least, DZ's should have a "swoop lane" that non-swoopers know to avoid. ________________________ Very much agreed on this Idea ... Is it possible? _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 November 6, 2003 QuoteVery much agreed on this Idea ... Is it possible? Well, yes! Bigger DZ's have separated their landing areas for years. I jumpt at Chicagoland, which isn't nearly as big as the "big DZ's" and it has a swoop lane that non-swoopers avoid. I'd prefer my DZ go even farther to separate traffic, but you gotta take baby steps, I guess. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #11 November 6, 2003 Z-hills flies a left-hand turn pattern. I also recommend the "leg kick" recognition that BillVon mentioned. I do it a lot. For people doing hook turns - "Look before ya hook" See what is behind you first. This goes for people doing spirals also. People should spiral outside of the landing area. Don't get into the traffic until you are going to land. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vdschoor 0 #12 November 6, 2003 Quote At the very least, DZ's should have a "swoop lane" that non-swoopers know to avoid. ________________________ Very much agreed on this Idea ... Is it possible? It is very possible! They have one in Byron, so you are all set to jump! Iwan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #13 November 6, 2003 I agree with bill. The only thing I would like to add is that container manufacturers should really look into installing horns on their rigs. I can't tell you how handy that would have been following another canopy through the pattern on sunset a month or so ago. Here's the story: Him-10yrs in sport, ? jumps, pd 170 9-cell at about 1:1. He was out first, but somehow, he was at my altitude when I opened at 4k (I was freeflying and last non-hopnpop out of a packed otter). I watch him the whole time. I am in brakes to let everybody land, but I decide I am at his altitude too long by the time I get to my "holding area," so I grab a front riser and dump some altitude. I end up at about 1200, so I head for the downwind leg. I notice him a couple hundred feet on the other side of the normal base leg, and about 600 ft higher than me. As I fly the downwind, he starts to toggle spiral. As I make the base turn, he stops spiraling (at about 500ft) and enters my pattern about 150 ft in front of me. I would have sworn he saw me. How could he miss me? So, I am giving him lots of room in front of me, taking my Samurai 150 @ 1.45:1 into half brakes and checking how it's going to affect my planned 90 front riser carve and thinking about opting out of that landing. I've started sinking past him, so I get ready to go early into the riser turn and just get ahead of him. As soon as he reaches the end of his base leg, he realized he was too high and toggles 180 degrees (some old-school accuracy shit) and is now head on toward me, but still is not noticing me. With about 100 ft left between us, and my hands already in the dive loops, I use one, get below him, plane out and surf the landing. I was really never so happy to be on the ground. The guy was aiming to kill me and he didn't even know it. Ten years in the sport and he didn't know what a pattern was, or how to use one. He was totally target fixated and had no clue anybody else was in the air. The sad thing was, he tried to defend doing s-turns on a final with jumpers landing behind him. I wish I had a horn. Be careful out there. Keep your head on a swivel and fly defensively. People are trying to kill you. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelel01 1 #14 November 6, 2003 QuoteAt the very least, DZ's should have a "swoop lane" that non-swoopers know to avoid. I am really glad that this topic was brought up. I have been scared to death since last weekend (I jump at Skydive Atlanta), and I was wondering what steps could be taken to avoid other canopies. Here's my question-- does anyone from SDA know if we have a "swooping lane"? Thanks, and blue skies! Kelly Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #15 November 6, 2003 Speed at which closure occurs and relative unawareness are the main causes.Hey,do what I do,Still getting out last and pulling at 8 grand.If the tandem Pilots know your doing what you say your gonna do,and at the same time being very aware of them,they have no problems with me doing this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pop 0 #16 November 6, 2003 QuoteI wouldn't say that they've become more common, just that we're hearing about them more. What makes you say that?7 ounce wonders, music and dogs that are not into beer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #17 November 6, 2003 Cool, and true ... Speed seems to be an issue _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #18 November 6, 2003 QuoteWhat makes you say that? We're hearing about them more because people are dieing from them more often. Canopy colisions used to be no big thing, especially under round parachutes. Two rounds bumping sides... who cares? CRW used to be responsible for most of the canopy colisions, and those colisions were frequently intentional, but moreso they were almost entirely done way up high with lots of time to deal with then ensuing collapse. Canopy colisions close to the ground, in the pattern, and on final are relatively new, for the reasons Bill outline. High performance canopies becoming common, swooping becoming common, large airplanes, and freeflying all contribute to canopy colisions over the landing area, which is a new problem. My belief is that this new problem requires a new solution, that tips like "kicking your legs" and "watch your separation" just isn't enough. Canopies flying at radically different speeds should have radically different landing area. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kai2k1 0 #19 November 7, 2003 QuoteAs your canopy is opening, learn to steer it with both your body and the risers. This will give you the ability to avoid someone even before your canopy is fully open. Bill, How do you turn the canopy with your body?? Thanks There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RoysPlayThing 0 #20 November 7, 2003 I hope to keep this thread for future reference. Thank you everybody for your tips and insights on the issue. I was feeling a little overwhelmed with the recent accidents. I feel a little better. Nothing in life is a sure thing, and everything comes with risks.. especially the things we seem to be attracted to the most. _______________________________________________ My mind is like a parachute...it functions only when open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #21 November 7, 2003 Things that I've seen that I feel reduce the chances of canopy collision: 1. Separate landing areas. Put all the people that are going to fly conservative, predictable landing patterns in one area, and swoopers/downwinders/etc in another landing area. It means some people will have to walk a bit further. Also, make sure there is a well-defined boundary for the "in" area and the "out" area. If you want to land downwind/crosswind/hookturn, you can always do it in the "out" area, where there is more space to do it. 2. Below 1,000 feet, fly a predictable, conservative landing pattern. Left-hand square-in landing is standard, but I rarely see it done consistently. If you can't make a left-hand square-in pattern, land in the "out" area. 3. Land in the same direction as the first person down. If you're the first person down, make every effort to land upwind . Everyone else follow. If wind direction changes, and you want to land upwind rather than the same direction as the first person down, land "out". 4. Exit separation. If your DZ does not have a good culture of exit separation, then take it upon yourself to foster one. Waiting 5 seconds is probably not sufficient, nor is the 45 degree rule. Distance covered over the ground is the only way to be sure of proper separation. This calls for something called "spotting". In our day of GPS, I think a lot of newer jumpers (myself sometimes included) don't really know how to spot - ask more experienced people to help you learn to spot - it's the best way to see how much ground you cover before exit. 5. Try to separate yourself vertically, as well as horizontally from everyone else. If everyone is headed for the same spot, then it makes sense to time it so that there's at least a few seconds between each person landing. If you try to get halfway between the person in front of you and the person behind you, you will maximize the time interval between all three of you. There are quite a few more things that everyone can do. I think BillVon said "fly like everyone else is trying to kill you", or something like that. Also, there is plenty of good information on this website and other sites about canopy skills.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #22 November 7, 2003 Quote Rock climbing and scuba diving are freak'n worthless when compared to skydiving, IMHO. Then you're not doing it right. Sure, at entry level both scuba diving and rock climbing is less that super exciting. Do deep dive wreck penetrations with decompression and your pecker factor goes up a hundred times. Way more dangerous than sky diving. Add trimix to it and it'll get really exciting. Sky diving cannot be compared to an unexplored deep wreck dive where you know you have to stay on your toes to live and where you have no idea what you'll discover around the next bulkhead. It's two different ballgames. Same with rock climbing. If vanilla rock climbing ain't exciting enough - do some free climbing. Once ya get the Elvis shakes of exhaustion on such a voyage it'll scare the living crap outta you. Scuba diving and rock climbing are very different from each other and from sky diving. I couldn't classify one of them as better as the other. It all depends on what you get your kicks from. Technical diving is planning, planning, planning, flawless execution, discovery, zen and being out there where literally none or very few have been before. Identifying the wreck, learning about its history - it all adds up. Rock climbing is dealing with the threat of falling and injury/death *constantly* for long periods of time. Planning ahead and remaining calm even when the body is giving up before the mind. I say do all three. They all add great value to life. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vonSanta 0 #23 November 7, 2003 QuoteCanopies flying at radically different speeds should have radically different landing area. _Am One of the problems (at least at small Cessna DZs) is that everyone wants to land as close to the packing area as possible. People doing straight in approaches, even students, and of course the ones doing hook turns. It only gets worse when a big plane is brought in during a boogie/competition. I deal with it my using my general approach to life: Stay Away From Unsafe People. So I land further away and stay outta the highly trafficked areas. My main worry is just after opening. It seems to me everyone is occupied with stowing their slider/turning up against the wind instead of looking around. I would be too (and was) except after a 4 way me and another chap had off heading openings and came surging towards each other. He was my instructor and much more experienced than me - he saw me and turned away using back risers. I only saw him after he'd turned to avoid hitting me, being too busy wondering what the canopy was doing. It has definitely been a concern for me since. Am a low time jumper and I can imagine there are many more like me who just aren't really aware of all the dangers that exist in this sport. Santa Von GrossenArsch I only come in one flavour ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #24 November 7, 2003 My 2 cents, Get out high with a couple buddies and do some no contact crew, it will give you a feel for the closing speeds involved in canopy flight. Does anybody do clearing turns after opening? blues jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sssbc99 0 #25 November 7, 2003 QuoteRock climbing and scuba diving are freak'n worthless when compared to skydiving, IMHO. How much scuba diving have you done?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
