14 Italians killed in Iraq

[SkydiverRick 0]

I know that you are talking about the principle of local resistance being difficult to combat for occupying forces, but it reads "wrong" to draw any parallels between WW2 and Iraq.

[billvon 3,120]

>Why would we want the UN commanding our troops. The UN doesn't
> give a shit about Iraq, they just want to make a buck.

If it would save a few hundred US troops and provide stability in Iraq, would you support it?

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

>Why would we want the UN commanding our troops. The UN doesn't
> give a shit about Iraq, they just want to make a buck.

If it would save a few hundred US troops and provide stability in Iraq, would you support it?

Yes, but that's not what Mikkey said. The way I read it, we should leave the troops there but turn them over to UN control.

never pull low......unless you are

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Not true. There are many parallels

So what are they? Is the US is behaving like Nazi-Germany in your oppinion?

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

Quote

Not true. There are many parallels

So what are they? Is the US is behaving like Nazi-Germany in your oppinion?

I see you took your silly pill.

never pull low......unless you are

[mikkey 0]

Quote

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


>Why would we want the UN commanding our troops. The UN doesn't
> give a shit about Iraq, they just want to make a buck.

If it would save a few hundred US troops and provide stability in Iraq, would you support it?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, but that's not what Mikkey said. The way I read it, we should leave the troops there but turn them over to UN control.

That was the question and you said yes. Try reading posts before replying. If you want the UN to run the country in the transition phase the UN needs to run the whole show including security, i.e. they have to be in strategic command of all troops. If not - well then carry on as now. Good luck.

BTW US troops have been under UN command before - it does not hurt..... The framework is agreed in advance. Not like some French telling your troops what to do day to day.... Thats not how it works. Try to educate yourself and check how other UN run operations like Bosnia are done. The US is participating in that one.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not true. There are many parallels

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So what are they? Is the US is behaving like Nazi-Germany in your oppinion?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I see you took your silly pill.

Well I asked for examples to underpin your "point". Either answer the question or stop making silly statements.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

So Mr. Bush could you please repeat the "bring it on" and "everything is going well" stuff.

Here is some perspective for you:

There have been about 160 deaths in Iraq since the end of major combat six months ago.

Meanwhile, back home in the United States...

Ten leading causes of death, 1994 (U.S.)

1) Heart disease ......................... 2,286,000
2) Cancer ................................... 734,000
3) Stroke .................................... 536,000
4) Lung diseases ......................... 102,000
5) Pneumonia & influenza .............. 82,000
6) Diabetes ................................. 55,000
7) Motor vehicle accidents ............. 42,000
8) AIDS ...................................... 42,000
9) Suicide ................................... 33,000
10) Liver diseases ........................ 26,000

Source: National Center for Health Statistics

It would seem that if it is death you are concerned about, you would do far better to concentrate your energy on some of the above causes.

More Americans die every two days in auto accidents, then have died in Iraq since the end of combat.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Well I asked for examples to underpin your "point". Either answer the question or stop making silly statements.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Either answer the question or stop making silly statements.

[SkydiverRick 0]

It would seem that if it is death you are concerned about, you would do far better to concentrate your energy on some of the above causes.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

There have been about 160 deaths in Iraq since the end of major combat six months ago.

Wrong, get your facts straight. This is from CNN and does neither include the allied troops killed (UK and Italian) nor the couple of US troops killed in the last 24 Hr.:

Quote

Thirty-eight U.S. troops have died this month, bringing the number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war to 398. Since President Bush declared an end to major combat May 1, 259 U.S. servicemen and women have been killed.

So thats 260+ US troops alone since "major combat" and if you include British and Italian troops it is more like 300. Not to mentioned the hundreds of Iraqi civilians / police killed in the attacks.

Quote

It would seem that if it is death you are concerned about, you would do far better to concentrate your energy on some of the above causes.

I think you should explain your point to the families of the soldiers killed. They really will appreciate this.

At the current rate you are looking at 500 - 1000 US troops a year killed in Iraq (and you might be stuck for years there due to the security problems). So that is acceptable in your opinion? sigh.....

If you approach it this way 9/11 was not even significant.... wonder what people who lost loved ones think about your reasoning.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

Well I asked for examples to underpin your "point". Either answer the question or stop making silly statements.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to compare the US to nazi-germany that's your choice. The comparison is silly however and I don't think that I need to defend that point. Intelligent people can judge your remarks without my help

I asked you about why you state that there are parallels between WW2 and the occupation of Iraq and you are not answering. I asked you if you (not me) believe that there are parallels between the occupation of Europe by the Germans and the current situation in Iraq and you are only replying by posting PA's. So why are you making statements you can't defend and when challenged only post PA's? Are you a troll?

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[mikkey 0]

John, I think that his is more concerned with promoting his liberal agenda than he is with the plight of the American soldier. ***

So what is my "liberal agenda"? Can you under pin anything you say? Seems very clear that I am more concerned about the lives lost in Iraq then you are. You are behaving like a troll. And I would appreciate it if you stop behaving like a jerk. You are also showing great disrespect to the people who are loosing their lives.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[SkydiverRick 0]

I asked you about why you state that there are parallels between WW2 and the occupation of Iraq and you are not answering.

The forcible removal of an evil dictator is one.

[SkydiverRick 0]

You are behaving like a troll. And I would appreciate it if you stop behaving like a jerk. You are also showing great disrespect to the people who are loosing their lives.

[kallend 2,150]

Quote

Quote

So Mr. Bush could you please repeat the "bring it on" and "everything is going well" stuff.

Here is some perspective for you:

There have been about 160 deaths in Iraq since the end of major combat six months ago.

Meanwhile, back home in the United States...

Ten leading causes of death, 1994 (U.S.)

1) Heart disease ......................... 2,286,000
2) Cancer ................................... 734,000
3) Stroke .................................... 536,000
4) Lung diseases ......................... 102,000
5) Pneumonia & influenza .............. 82,000
6) Diabetes ................................. 55,000
7) Motor vehicle accidents ............. 42,000
8) AIDS ...................................... 42,000
9) Suicide ................................... 33,000
10) Liver diseases ........................ 26,000

Source: National Center for Health Statistics

It would seem that if it is death you are concerned about, you would do far better to concentrate your energy on some of the above causes.

More Americans die every two days in auto accidents, then have died in Iraq since the end of combat.

I expect that's a great consolation to the families and friends of the dead soldiers. Thank you for sharing that with us.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

I expect that's a great consolation to the families and friends of the dead soldiers. Thank you for sharing that with us.

I think that the MAJOR difference of the list of dead on that list occur to people who have had fairly full long lives. Most are due to the diseases of old age. The deaths of young soldiers is far different. We are giving up lives that hold promise of futures unknown.. wasted.

3 of the categories listed would be far less if there was more compassion and education in this country and the world as well. IF we had a government that did not preach ABSTINENCE as the only solution.. how many fewer deaths from AIDS would there be..oh wait those are sinners who deserve the wrath of god.
If there was more compassion from families of distraught young people who may have serious issues growing up... how many of those suicides would be avoided... how many of those returning SOLDIERS who saw the true face of war.. will be in that group of suicides in years to come.. as so many Nam vets opted out of life after returning "home". And motor vehicle accidents.. so many people die needlessly because someone is at the wheel with problems which lead to abusing drugs or alcohol.. to drown out life's realities. How many of those SOLDIERS will seek to put the war behind them with similar problems.

[mikkey 0]

Quote

I asked you about why you state that there are parallels between WW2 and the occupation of Iraq and you are not answering.

------------------------------------------------------

The forcible removal of an evil dictator is one.

Could you try to discuss based on what actually has been posted?

The issue came up due to this exchange between kallend and myself and try to read this first:

Kallend:
There is always a resistance in an occupied country. The French undoubtedly remember this from the 1940s. The Germans too, will remember from the opposite perspective.

Yugoslavian resistance fighters caused a three week delay in Barbarossa in 1941 that was a decisive event in the European war. No doubt the Russians remember this.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mikkey:

I do not think you can compare the occupation of Europe by the Germans (and what they were doing in these countries) and the resistance with the situation in Iraq. ……I know that you are talking about the principle of local resistance being difficult to combat for occupying forces, but it reads "wrong" to draw any parallels between WW2 and Iraq.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You replied:

“Not true. There are many parallels. Just because you want to deny it doesn't change the facts. “

I challenged that and asked you to provide examples. I had to ask 3 times before you replied:

“The forcible removal of an evil dictator is one.”


Now, if you had the courtesy to read what we talked about – you would recognise that we were discussing the difference between 1) when in WW2 the Germans were occupying and suppressing Europe and 2) The US occupying Iraq.

It seems you responded to something different from what we discussed. So reading the posts might help.

Quote

Except for refering to you as a liberal (which is true), I haven't personally attacked you.

1) How do you know I am a liberal? Being concerned about the war in Iraq is being “liberal”? BTW where I live the liberal party is the conservative party.

2) You said: “I think that his is more concerned with promoting his liberal agenda than he is with the plight of the American soldier.” I take this as an insult as it is totally contrary to what I posted and what my intentions are. I have expressed my concerns for the people loosing their live and expressed my sympathies for their families. The accusation is an insult.


Unfortunately I do not expect you “to get it” even with a detailed “run down”. I will not waste more time on your posts.

Quote

Are you a troll?

Thinly veiled attempt at a personal attack.

Well then stop behaving like this and if you want to discuss then discuss based on what people actually write.

---------------------------------------------------------
When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray.

[billvon 3,120]

>There have been about 160 deaths in Iraq since the end of major combat six months ago.

>Ten leading causes of death, 1994 (U.S.) . . .,

It is pretty insulting that you would equate the killing of an american soldier to accidental motor vehicle deaths. I think they're just a bit different - and so do most other people.

Heck, by your logic, we should ignore 9/11 (only 3000 dead) and spend all that money on liver disease. After all, the terrorists only killed 3000 americans, right? That's nothing in your book, compared to pneumonia! I'm sure their families will understand.

[vonSanta 0]

The absolutely worst thing that can happen right now is that the US pulls out before the job is done. Whether you supported the war or not, this is true.

Early pullout will lead to civil war and a breeding ground for terrorists. And a huge propaganda victory for terrorists. A failure in Iraq will affect all of us and we've just seen that Al Qaeda don't give a shite about what they hit, as long as people die.

The US miscalculated big time (if they calculated at all) regarding post-war Iraq. Now I just hope the US has the stamina to salvage the situation, which appears to progress forward only very slowly.

And it would be helpful if other nations participated more actively in the rebuilding of Iraq. We've had time to say "IToldYouSo" now and the US has learned a lesson about pissing on the advice/will of friendly nations. Now is the time for Europe and the rest of the world to think about Iraq instead of prestige.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

the US has learned a lesson about pissing on the advice/will of friendly nations.

Unfortunately, I'm not so sure about that.

Quote

Now is the time for Europe and the rest of the world to think about Iraq instead of prestige.

But I think you're right. Iraq is a mess, and I don't think America can clean it up by itself.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[SkydiverRick 0]

Well then stop behaving like this and if you want to discuss then discuss based on what people actually write.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

the number of U.S. troops killed in the Iraq war to 398. Since President Bush declared an end to major combat

Okay, my number stands corrected. But that doesn't change the impact of the comparison to the 40,000 or so traffic fatalities that occur each year on the streets of America.

Quote

I think you should explain your point to the families of the soldiers killed. They really will appreciate this.

Ah yes: try to claim moral high ground, and ignore the argument.

Quote

At the current rate you are looking at 500 - 1000 US troops a year killed in Iraq

That's the price for taking the war to the terrorists, and fighting them on their own turf. That's what soldiers do, they know that, and they do it voluntarily.

Would you rather give the terrorists safe havens in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, so that they are free to organize and attack us at will here in America, as they did on 9-11-01?

Quote

(and you might be stuck for years there due to the security problems). So that is acceptable in your opinion? sigh.....

War isn't pretty. But it is sometimes necessary, as in this case. To do nothing creates even bigger problems. We were in Japan for 7 years before turning their country back over to them. Germany was similar. Bosnia was supposed to be quick too, and yet we're still there. These things take time. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive. In the long run, those wars were worth fighting, as horrible as they were, because to not fight them would have been worse. And look at those examples and how prosperous and peaceful they have been since, and how many people are better off because of it.

Quote

If you approach it this way 9/11 was not even significant.... wonder what people who lost loved ones think about your reasoning

As usual when people try to cram words into my mouth, they don't reflect my thinking. The loss of 3,000 people in a terrorist attack is significant. So is the loss of 40,000 per year in auto accidents. So I wonder why we never hear anything in the media about the latter, since the death toll is 13 times worse, and happens repeatedly, year after year...

I could play your same game, and claim that you are unconcerned about the 40,000 victims of traffic accidents each year. What would their families think of your uncaring attitude?

• Quote

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I expect that's a great consolation to the families and friends of the dead soldiers.

Soldiers know what the risks are, and they volunteer to serve anyway. We should be grateful that they willingly take these risks to make America safe.

I served five years in the USMC. One of my brothers died a Marine. You have no right to preach to me about the feelings of the families of dead servicemen. I am more sensitive than most to this issue. It tears my guts out every time I hear of new fatalities. Nevertheless, I think it is necessary to be there, and one of the costs of defending America, and setting the Iraqiis free so they can be safe and prosperous.

Freedom isn't free.