JohnRich 4 #26 November 13, 2003 Quote Certainly........This war is C.R.A.P!!!!!!! You look like a fairly young guy. I'm betting you've grown up with a free, comfortable life in a prosperous family. Maybe you've never been outside the U.S. to see how much of the rest of the world lives under tyranny and squalor. Probably you've never served in the military yourself, and don't know what serving your country is all about. I think you probably don't have the exposure to the world yet to understand this and other wars, and to respect the sacrifice of those who have fought for freedom in the past, so that you could live your life free and comfortable... And to be free to whine about wars which you know nothing about... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #27 November 13, 2003 >I think you probably don't have the exposure to the world yet to > understand this and other wars, and to respect the sacrifice of those > who have fought for freedom in the past, so that you could live your > life free and comfortable... Wars are partly to keep us comfortable?? Wow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #29 November 13, 2003 QuoteWars are partly to keep us comfortable?? Wow. Wars are fought to preserve or re-gain freedom for ourselves, or others. Freedom leads to prosperity. Prosperty provides comfort. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #30 November 13, 2003 >Wars are fought to preserve or re-gain freedom for ourselves, or > others. I'll agree with you there. >Freedom leads to prosperity. Prosperty provides comfort. And war leads to mutilation and death. Mutilation provides discomfort; death is not too comforting to the families of the dead. The one purpose of our military is to provide for a common defense of the USA. That was the original rationale for the war in Iraq; to neutralize an imminent threat to the US posed by Hussein's aggressiveness and his array of WMD's (including nuclear.) Turns out he didn't have any, so it became a war of liberation. Well, at least it did until the Iraqis got less appreciative of the liberation, so now it's a war on terror. War is the worst thing there is. For each death of a US soldier you hear about, two are coming back without arms, legs or faces. Many will never walk normally again. War is justifiable if necessary to defend the US against aggressors who would injure or destroy us; it is never justifiable to preserve our economy, political parties or comfort. It is wrong to ask others to die for such causes. And it is never OK to claim that the sacrifices they make for their country are similar to the 'sacrifices' people make by getting into car accidents. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #31 November 13, 2003 Quotewar leads to mutilation and death. Not fighting wars allows tyrants to commit their own mutilation and death, as Sadam was doing to his own people, and as he did to Kuwait, and Iran. Hitler was causing a lot of death too. Should we have stayed out of WWII so that U.S. soldiers wouldn't be killed? Imagine what Europe would have been like if Hitler had been allowed to win... Quotethe original rationale for the war in Iraq; to neutralize an imminent threat to the US posed by Hussein's aggressiveness and his array of WMD's (including nuclear.) Turns out he didn't have any... He did have WMD's. He used them against Iran, and his own people. He was just clever enough to hide them or dispose of them before we attacked this time. Quoteso it became a war of liberation. Don't the people of Iraq deserve that? Or should we just pull out and let the thugs take over once again, starting all over again with brutal repression and human rights abuses? And likewise, once again becoming a haven for anti-American terrorists? Quote Well, at least it did until the Iraqis got less appreciative of the liberation It's only the extremist thugs who want their power back that reject the American presence. The majority of the people there recognize that they will be better off if we continue to turn them over to peaceful self-rule. QuoteAnd it is never OK to claim that the sacrifices they make for their country are similar to the 'sacrifices' people make by getting into car accidents. I made no such claim. I was pointing out that the level of casualties is extremely low for a war, by comparing them to the number of auto fatalities. I never implied that the sacrifice on an individual level is equal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kai2k1 0 #32 November 13, 2003 QuoteQuoteGive me one reason that justifies this war, besides all the CNN spoon fed hoopla..... how about 14 UN resolutions, countless terms and firing at coalition aircraft every week, death camps, torture, malnutrition, just to name a few. This war was and is justified. Just because there is a glitch in the payroll system is cause to hate the government and the war?? There's no truer sense of flying than sky diving," Scott Cowan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #33 November 13, 2003 Just curious - why is this "war" justified in your opinion? -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #34 November 13, 2003 QuoteAnd war leads to mutilation and death. Mutilation provides discomfort; death is not too comforting to the families of the dead. As did the attacks on 9-11. QuoteWar is justifiable if necessary to defend the US against aggressors who would injure or destroy us; it is never justifiable to preserve our economy, political parties or comfort. It is wrong to ask others to die for such causes. But that is not what this war is about. And is it more wrong to hold up money needed to support those troops for a political party's show? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pammi 0 #35 November 13, 2003 Quotehttp://www.msnbc.com/news/992826.asp?0cv=CA01 THIS PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Hmm, that doesn't surprise me. My ex was in the Guard and we almost lost our house we were trying to buy because they didn't pay him for his basic and AIT or the bonus they'd promised until it was almost too late ... the people were going to sue us cuz we didn't close. It was only the beginning of the bullshit they didn't follow-up on. Pammi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
harryskydives 0 #36 November 13, 2003 When i was first in the military, a few of us rented a house off base. You know party central. Two of my room mates were fiance clerks. They did not have a combat mos, they just typed form after form into the computer. Back them it was punch cards. If some one pissed one of us off, their payrecords went to tuley greenland, ect. I am sure they have updated the pay procedure, but it is still some enlisted men/ woman keying in what they are told to, garbage in garbage out. It is not some "government" trying to fuck over the fighting man. Just remember this is the same government that tax increases go to making more of it. Don't run out of altitude and experience at the same time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #37 November 13, 2003 When Colin Powell talked to the United Nations for three hours a few months back, he wasn't talking about freeing a people from tyrrany and squalor. He was talking about Weapons of Mass Destruction.__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 November 14, 2003 QuoteWhen Colin Powell talked to the United Nations for three hours a few months back, he wasn't talking about freeing a people from tyrrany and squalor. He was talking about Weapons of Mass Destruction. They go together: doing the latter, also accomplishes the former. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #39 November 14, 2003 >Hitler was causing a lot of death too. Bzzt! I'm sorry, but under Godwin's Law you've just abandoned a rational discussion. (Basically, it states that if your only recourse in a discussion is to invoke Hitler to make your point, there is nothing of substance left in the discussion.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,090 #40 November 14, 2003 >As did the attacks on 9-11. According to our president, Saddam Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Saudi Arabia and Florida both had far more to do with providing and training the 9/11 terrorists. >But that is not what this war is about. And is it more wrong to hold up >money needed to support those troops for a political party's show? In order of bad things, from worst to least: WORST -Lying to begin/promote a war -Leaking the name of a CIA operative for political gain -Closing military bases needed for national defense -Denying american POW's their settlement money -Political delay of funding for war LEAST Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hey-babyva 0 #41 November 14, 2003 Dude chill, it's a f-ck-up situation I don't think you read my lips I said "since the first of the month" that point was for that time frame ONLY Like I said Bush has got our troops "digging a hole" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #42 November 14, 2003 Quoteunder Godwin's Law you've just abandoned a rational discussion. (Basically, it states that if your only recourse in a discussion is to invoke Hitler to make your point, there is nothing of substance left in the discussion.) I don't know who Godwin is, but this "law" of his doesn't apply here. Making analogies amongst different dictators who are both responsible for the deaths of thousands or millions of people, is a perfectly acceptable comparison. Your lack of a substantive response just seems to show that you don't have one. What's really going on with the invocation of this so-called "law" is that you just don't want to answer the questions put to you, because the only correct answer will impact your argument negatively. Would you like to try once again to answer the question? Or do you have more red herrings you want to throw at me? If you are going to exclude discussion of murderous dictators, then this whole thread is "nothing of substance" and should be deleted from the forum. If you want to use this so-called "law", then apply it uniformly, or don't apply it at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #43 November 14, 2003 How can I use Godwin's Law to my advantage? In the proper kind of flamewar, Godwin's Law can be used as a gambit - how can you force your opponent to invoke the Law? Actually teaching these skills is tough, of course, and is best done through experience. Experience with chess and alt.flame are recommended.Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #44 November 14, 2003 Quote I don't know who Godwin is, but this "law" of his doesn't apply here. Making analogies amongst different dictators who are both responsible for the deaths of thousands or millions of people, is a perfectly acceptable comparison. Godwin reflected that on USENET, all flame wars eventually evoke a reference to Hitler and the Nazis, and it marks the end of the thread (as well as declaring the person making the reference to be the loser). It probably isn't suitable in this conversation, given the context, but it is a slight stretch to put Saddam in the same league as Adolf. He's a minor leaguer in comparison. You're also wrong in to argue that one must have served overseas to understand the questions at hand. Why did we enter WW2 when we did? Because Pearl Harbor happened. Nothing less would move the isolationist people to do so; they remember the price we paid in just one year in the prior War. It certainly wasn't to save anyone from Hitler. Going back to WWI, it wasn't even a given that we would enter on the side against the Germans. We lent money and supplies to both sides. and to share the blame, Bill, did you ever believe the stated reasons for the current war on Iraq? That was PR from the start. We wanted to get rid of Saddam since 1990 and current affairs created the environment to make it happen. And the world is better off for it. Looking at the 20th Century, this sort of lying is pretty much par for the course. Starting with the supposed sinking of the Maine in Cuba, pass by the Gulf of Tonkin, then cruise by Grenada and Panama. ok, I stirred up enough. back to work so I can finally go home! -Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #45 November 14, 2003 "I dated a girl named Pandora once. .....Never got to see her box though." -a line from the movie, Notting Hill Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #46 November 14, 2003 QuoteWhy did we enter WW2 when we did? Because Pearl Harbor happened. Nothing less would move the isolationist people to do so; they remember the price we paid in just one year in the prior War. It certainly wasn't to save anyone from Hitler Well ACTUALLY... Yes Peal Harbor happend but Germany declared war on us first. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- December 11, 1941 The President's Message To the Congress of the United States: On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States. I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy. Franklin D. Roosevelt The War Resolution Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same. Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America: Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States And the Maine happened in 1898 The whole Spanish-American War occurred in the 19th century... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #47 November 14, 2003 QuoteQuoteWhy did we enter WW2 when we did? Because Pearl Harbor happened. Nothing less would move the isolationist people to do so; they remember the price we paid in just one year in the prior War. It certainly wasn't to save anyone from Hitler Well ACTUALLY... Yes Peal Harbor happend but Germany declared war on us first. Yes. In response to our declaration of war against Japan, their Axis [of evil] partner, Japan. It was, as your reference notes, a given that the other 1.3 countries would be part of the deal. Strange how the notion of declarations of war became so out of style. Or that it lasted that long. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LivingInClip 0 #48 November 14, 2003 I won't say this war is justified one way or another. What I will say, is the goverment is eager to send us off to get killed or kill someone, but are not so eager to pay. Extremely screwed up, in my opinion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #49 November 14, 2003 Its amazing that there has been no similar declaration since then either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #50 November 14, 2003 AND when our troops do come back.. how is this ULTRA-Patriotic administration going to treat them with the abysmal treatment handed out by the Veterans Administration. Will they pull the same crap they always have after a "conflict". Agent Orange comes to mind.... and Gulf War Syndrome just to name a couple. http://veterans.house.gov/hearings/schedule108/may03/5-6-03/kspearman.html Excerpt On any given night in Florida between 17,000 and 23,000 homeless veterans are living in shelters, on the streets, in encampments, on derelict boats or in other places not meant for human habitation. Volunteers of America of Florida has the largest number of Veterans Affairs Grant and Per Diem supportive housing and service programs in Florida, as well as the largest number of HUD McKinney-Vento Supported Housing Programs in the state. These are our loved ones over there serving right here in this time... right now....... we ALL should demand better for them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
