bowling for columbine

[billvon 3,107]

I finally got a chance to see it last night. Moore had some good perspectives on the problems of violence in America. Some of the more interesting parts were not part of his narration; they came from unlikely sources like Marilyn Manson and kids in a Canadian taco bell.

I was sorry that he didn't expand on his "Americans live in fear, so they are more likely to kill each other" theme. He seemed to suggest that but not pursue it.

I think the insights from Manson were remarkably apt from someone who's supposed to be a lunatic. He gave the best answer I've heard so far to the question "If you could have talked to those kids before they started shooting, what would you have said to them?"

One theory that he floated that made a lot of sense was that the US, as a country, kills people as a significant part of their foreign policy. "Take em out!" "Osama in the crosshairs" bumper stickers are still all over. People in Littleton build ICBM's, and they only have one purpose. It's not unreasonable to think that some people might emulate the leader of our country when they deal with their problems (on a much lower level of course.)

His interviews of the various militia people were revealing. On the one extreme there was the militia leader who thought that people who did not own guns were failing in their responsibilities as an American; on the other extreme was the militia member who thought that an M-16 was a dangerous weapon to be used around the house for home defense. It would have been easy to portray them all as nuts; Moore gave a pretty balanced view, I thought.

I was disappointed that he used the interview with Charlton Heston to basically piss him off and get the required Michael Moore shot of him walking away while Moore is shouting "But what about the dead child?" The issue of why people are killing each other with guns in the US to that degree is worthy of being discussed, and I suspect that even the NRA is very concerned about it - it's probably the biggest threat to their principles. I wish he had been able to discuss it with Heston more intelligently.

[bigben 0]

I saw it a while ago, liked it a lot. I remember thinking at the time about the comparisons he drew with the US and western europe. It's true that the UK has a lot less gun violence, but it has a lot more violent crime. So I didn't buy the America lives in fear and other countries don't argument. I think the UK does too. It would have been interesting to see the violent crime stats for other countries, not just the gun related ones.


Cheers
-Ben

[billvon 3,107]

>I didn't buy the America lives in fear and other countries don't argument.

Yeah, he didn't demonstrate that, other than in comparison to Canada.

[steve1 5]

It's too bad we aren't doing more to deal with violence in America. But then again it's not going to be an easy problem to fix. The most violent kids that I work with each day in school are the ones who are being treated like crap at home. They come to school each day totally screwed up....hurting and above all angry. They spend most of their free time watching violent television shows and then playing very real and violent video games. And then they see their parents smacking each other around or are being nocked around themselves by parents, relatives, and other kids. Is it any wonder we have a violence problem. I know teachers and counselors try to help, but it is pretty supperficial. I'm not sure what the answer is. My daughter thinks we should spend more time in High School teaching kids how to be better parents. Maybe the cycle of abuse can be broken that way. Most schools are turning out kids who don't have a clue on how to be a good parent. When they have children the cycle starts all over again.

I've never been a big fan of government regulation, but maybe the government should do more to curb violent TV and video games. But then again this is infringing on our freedoms. I would like to hear some other ideas on this. Steve1

[kmcguffee 0]

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It's true that the UK has a lot less gun violence, but it has a lot more violent crime

Recently a police officer was killed and four severely wounded in London..............by a person who had just been arrested............and with a kitchen knife! We'll have to outlaw knives next.

I haven't seen the movie.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[kmcguffee 0]

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The most violent kids that I work with each day in school are the ones who are being treated like crap at home.

I've noticed the same. I know this is not politically correct but..............the breakdown of the American family is contributing immensely to the violence. I don't think there is one cure all problem solver but IMO that is a big issue.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 3,107]

>We'll have to outlaw knives next. . . .I haven't seen the movie.

Do see it, since there was no suggestion that guns should be outlawed. Moore is a member of the NRA and has several awards for marksmanship. He agreed readily when Heston brought up the second amendment.

[kmcguffee 0]

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Do see it, since there was no suggestion that guns should be outlawed.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the movie. I was referring to the UK's ban of hand guns.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[Deuce 1]

It's nice to see people being thoughtful about the topic. I don't care for Moore, as everything I've seen him do he's goading folks.

One thing, though. BillV said that ICBM's have only one purpose. I disagree. A launched ICBM serves only one purpose. While it is sitting ready in a silo, it serves a multitude of purposes, from diplomacy to deterrence. I think you can step this back all the way to a clenched fist. My life experience in this regard is skewed, as I carried arms and used them to coerce people for 13 years.

Brits as a culture, in my experience, have a distaste for handguns. Likewise, Italians dislike defensive shotguns, as they are associated with Mob violence.

Thanks for the review BillVon, I'll have to give Moore another chance.

[bigben 0]

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Do see it, since there was no suggestion that guns should be outlawed.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to the movie. I was referring to the UK's ban of hand guns.

My personal opinion is that the hand gun ban is a good thing, in the UK at least. In general the British public don't really want to own guns, unlike the US where it's seen as a right. Where do you draw the line? As was said in the movie, should individuals be allowed to own nuclear weapons? Anyway, I guess it's a big hairy problem with no clear answers.

Cheers
-Ben

[AndyMan 7]

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Yeah, he didn't demonstrate that, other than in comparison to Canada.

Even though it was in jest, I found the animated short somewhat compelling.

However.

He really missed the ball when he compared to Canada. His basic premise was that Canada has more guns then the US - is misleading, if not completely false.

He stated factually that Canada has more guns per capita then the US. Being someone who's lived quite a bit of time in both countries, this surprises me immensely. I would love to know where he got these numbers from.

However, even if I were to concede that Canada has more guns per capita then the US, this comparison completely misses the point. Guns in canada consist almost entirely of long guns - rifles and shotguns, who's purpose (and usual use) is for use against animals, either in hunting or defence.

It is extremely difficult to buy a handgun in Canada. It's relatively easy to get a '22 rifle. It is nearly imposible for anyone (collector or not) to buy assault rifles.

Columbine could not have happened in Canada, because the kids could not have stollen their parents assault rifles. Their parents don't have assault rifles. The last example of large scale gun violence in Canada goes back to 1989, in Montreal where Marc Lepine shot and killed 14 women at L'Ecole Polytechnique before commiting suicide. Gun control in canada has tightened significantly since then.


Guns in Canada are used for food. Guns in the US are used against people.

I do agree that Americans are living in fear. I spent some time living in Ohio, which has a very large gun owning population. Many of the handgun owners expressed that they kept a gun underneath their pillow to protect their house, their wife, their children. This was something I just could not understand - being that fearful that someone would break in, rape my wife, kidnap my children. Why are people so afraid?

I frequently forget to lock the front door. I never use a dead-bolt.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[Deuce 1]

Ben, my brother, I must point out that

YOU OWN A TANK!

The picture of my friend, there under his name, is him in his armored personnel carrier.

There really is no problem in the United States, debate-wise, until the Constitution is amended, there will be an individual right to own firearms. We may niggle over what types of firearms, what the heck, but gun ownership of some sort is here to stay.

The culture is changing, though, to reject people who choose to own guns. Like it is rejecting smokers, and people who drink and drive.

I'm using too many commas, methinks.

[billvon 3,107]

>He really missed the ball when he compared to Canada. His basic
> premise was that Canada has more guns then the US - is
> misleading, if not completely false.

Yep. I didn't see him prove that, and a hunting society is not necessarily the same as a handgun-oriented society. I do think he made a good point with the difference in fear in the two societies. The two interviews he did with people who were broken into, but who still didn't lock their doors, was telling. Canadians seem to think that's normal - your typical american would probably call them idiots; there are crazies out there!

One of the most striking parts of the movie to me was the interview with a brother of one of the Oklahoma City bombers (Terry Nichols?) who owned a small arsenal, slept with a loaded gun under his pillow, and who put a loaded gun to his own head at one point for effect. When asked why people shouldn't own nuclear weapons, he replied "there are some crazy people out there."

[steve1 5]

Columbine could not have happened in Canada, because the kids could not have stollen their parents assault rifles. Their parents don't have assault rifles.
...................................................................
You know there are a lot of weapons out there that are dangerous. I think they could have just as easily stormed into that school with other weapons. They didn't have to be armed with assault rifles. I for one don't think that an assault rifle is all that more dangerous than many other weapons. I fired lot's of fully automatic weapons in the service and wasn't all that impressed. In Vietnam something like 40,000 rounds were fired for one confirmed kill. That was partly because people were firing on full automatic when semi-automatic might have been more effective. Your first shot usually goes where you want it to and the rest are all over the place, usually above your target. Most Canadians have access to a shotgun. It's easy to saw the barrel off and a sawed off shotgun would probably be more effective at close quarters than an assault rifle. But then again it might not be much good at longer ranges or penetrating a bullet proof vest (like a high powered rifle can.) But then again Canadians have access to any number of high powered rifles. I just think it's easy to mistakingly feel that just because a weapon is full automatic that it is terribly more dangerous than other weapons. Steve1

[kmcguffee 0]

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It's easy to saw the barrel off and a sawed off shotgun would probably be more effective at close quarters than an assault rifle.

Very much more effective in close quarters. It was the weapon of choice for the lead man when clearing buildings while I was in the military. It is the weapon of choice when clearing buildings in my current job if a lot of bystanders aren't expected.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[base698 20]

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I've noticed the same. I know this is not politically correct but..............the breakdown of the American family is contributing immensely to the violence. I don't think there is one cure all problem solver but IMO that is a big issue.

There is a serious breakdown of the traditional nuclear family in other countries... how do you explain the lack of serious violent crime there?

The fear theme was definitly the most interesting in the movie. I wish they would have concentrated on that as well. The fear theme I think is a definite link to crime's importance in the American media. Maybe people would chill out if they didn't constantly feel threatened. It seems skydivers are mostly the only rational people about things like this and sometimes not even then. I figure we are more likely to examine things that can truely cause us harm.

I also didn't see the reason for the Heston interview *shrug*.

[smiles 0]

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It's too bad we aren't doing more to deal with violence in America. But then again it's not going to be an easy problem to fix. The most violent kids that I work with each day in school are the ones who are being treated like crap at home. They come to school each day totally screwed up....hurting and above all angry. Steve1

..watched on CTV last night:
Turning War games into a real thing- Childs Play -

Gaza, children play out arabs & jews shoot out. Palestinians become martyr.......
Post traumatic stress causes children to act out violently as have grown up with real fear, anxiety, hostility, stress. An 8 and 13 yr. old are caught in a "dare mission"- and officials shot them in the leg, arrested them.
Politial violence- childs play= "I want to blow up as many Israelites as I can."

I feel the drugs on our streets play a big part in violent crimes, along with environment in the home, violent tv and video games.
Not just the drug addict commiting crime for want of money- but the actual effect of the drugs in the brain (speed, paranoia, aggressive-violent behavior, drug induced psychosis, mania)

Smiles

[billvon 3,107]

>feel the drugs on our streets play a big part in violent crimes . . .

Drug use in Amsterdam is much higher than it is here, yet crime is not very high. In a given year, 2.4% of Americans used a hard drug (i.e. excluding alcohol, tobacco and marijuana) vs. 5.6% in Amsterdam. For pot it's 9% US vs 13% in Amsterdam. (usage in a given year.)

Comparing FBI stats on aggravated assault vs Dutch stats on attempted murder (they don't name their crimes the same way we do) we have 17 per 100K in the Netherlands vs 418 per 100K in the US.

So it's not just drugs.

>along with environment in the home, violent tv and video games.

The Japanese basically invented the violent video game, and european youths get the same stream of movies we get here, generally - they just get released a few months later.

And Israel? 40% less murders than even Canada. Hard to claim that a US child is more exposed to outside violence, or feels more threat to his life, than an Israeli child.

[evilivan 0]

[reply

And Israel? 40% less murders than even Canada. Hard to claim that a US child is more exposed to outside violence, or feels more threat to his life, than an Israeli child.

[evilivan 0]

Hey, look! I'm an enthusiast!

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[kmcguffee 0]

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There is a serious breakdown of the traditional nuclear family in other countries... how do you explain the lack of serious violent crime there?

Like I said in the rest of my post, it is a major factor but not the only one that explains the issue. Go ride with your local police for a few days and start interviewing the people they arrest regularly. I think you'll see enough evidence. The "middle class with a decent family" criminials are the exception. They make for good headlines but they are not in the majority.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[AndyMan 7]

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Like I said in the rest of my post, it is a major factor but not the only one that explains the issue. Go ride with your local police for a few days and start interviewing the people they arrest regularly.

There is white trash, inner city abandonment, and all those other 'family' problems in countries all around the world that are just as bad as the states, but their violence rates don't even come close to the US.

I think the breakdown of family is becoming the scapegoat for a lot of Americas ills.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SkySlut 0]

I have been looking to rent that movie...It seems as though not to many stores carry it though. Blockbuster & the Movie Gallery dont have it. They looked in their computers and found nothing. So I rented Roger & me instead. Great movie that I havent seen in a while.

[steve1 5]

There is white trash, inner city abandonment, and all those other 'family' problems in countries all around the world that are just as bad as the states, but their violence rates don't even come close to the US.

I think the breakdown of family is becoming the scapegoat for a lot of Americas ills.
..................................................................
If you are saying that the way kids are raised is not important, I whole heartedly disagree. Why are kids so angry that they are willing to take another life. It's almost always a kid who has not received what they really needed gowing up, such as love and acceptance from a primary care giver. This is a primary ingredient that every kid needs to turn out right. Look at our prison system. Who's in it. It's filled with people from broken homes or if they did have parents they did a terrible job of raising their kids. Many American parents who are doing a terrible job of parenting are also knocking down big bucks. On the surface their home looks great because they have a lot of material things. And sure the kids have a lot of toys to play with, but that doesn't mean the kids are happy or are getting what they really need (such as their parents time). After all the parents are too busy working to be bothered with kids. Such a home might be almost as dysfunctional as one you would find in an inner city. Many of the problems you find in the U.S. are unique and I think it's ridiculous to compare this country to others who have different circumstances. It's like comparing apples to oranges and you end up with twisted statistics. Steve1





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[airtwardo 7]

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>feel the drugs on our streets play a big part in violent crimes . . .


So it's not just drugs.

>along with environment in the home, violent tv and video games.

>along with environment in the home, violent tv and video games.

There is no doubt in my mind that violent TV and video games promote a level of aggressiveness and / or outright violence...
We adopted 3 kids from an orphanage in Russia 3 years ago...they were not exposed to any kind of violent television at all and had not even seen a video game. The boys, brothers 11 & 12 have somewhat differing personalities in that the older boy is a TV / vid game junkie while the younger one would rather play outside. If allowed to play a shoot-'em-up game, or watch a 'Rambo' type flick the older boy immediately begins to display aggressive behavior...orally and physically! His body language changes...verbal language changes...he becomes another
person(ality). We (now) 'V' chip the kids TV, and let them play only sports and racing type video games...the kinds of toys the kids can play with are closely regulated, and there is an obvious positive effect...
I'm in my mid-40's, other than being a skydiver, I'm fairly intelligent, and I NEVER thought the violent media argument had any merit...my opinion has changed 180 degrees after seeing first hand the cause & effect exposure to violence can have on what was in essence a virgin adolescent mind.
My unexpected reality is, that times today are much different from they were when I was growing up...
I had 'Ripcord' and 'leave it to beaver'
my kids have 'The Terminator' and 'Diehard'...it is hard and unending work to 'filter' the world our kids see, and attempt to get them to a point of well rounded objectiveness to the world they're living in.
Hopefully we're teaching them to handle their problems with thoughtful consideration as to the effect their actions may have on themselves and others...but who knows, only time will tell.
...I'm an NRA life member, raised around guns and shooting...in high school I was a ranked 'registered trap' shooter. A collector with all types of firearms, I also reloaded for 17 different calibers. I've protected my life with a handgun on two occasions, (your neck of the woods- Ocean Beach was rough back then) But these days I've had to rethink my 'other' hobby, and have placed those things far away from my children, until such time as I may feel they are mature enough to become a part of that area of my life.
...On the other hand-
I was living in an apartment across from Santana out in Santee when that shooting took place...I studied the event as much as possible at that time and believe that poor kid was the product of an uncaring and cruel environment- actual or perceived, he was pushed to a point that he felt lashing out was a self-preservation move...he only use a gun because it was handy...he may have done even more damage with a bomb or a car...
That just my opinion...I could be wrong, I too am after all STILL LEARNING!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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