Letter from Argus

[davelepka 4]

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Dave, if you want to investigate the conspiracy theory, then conspirators could be...
-the big beard man who has interest in Vigil
-PIA who seems to receive sponsoring from Airtec
-Alti2 who want to launch the new MarS AAD in the US
-FXC to prove that the Astra is good, plus has a nicer color

Unless you're talking about Santa Clause and his big beard, you must mean Bill Booth. I was not aware that he has an interest in Vigil, but even if he did, he is one rig manufacturer of many who have banned the Argus.

The last time I checked, rig manufacturers were not known for 'playing nice' together. By that I mean they are all independent, and fairly set in their ways. I can't see any of them banning anything without just casue. If anything, for the sake of all their customers who jump an Argus, and are now forced to either buy a new AAD, or jump without one. I can't see any rig manufacturer subjecting their customers to that without just cause.

Case(s) in point would be VSE, Jumpshack, and Sunrise, all of whom have not banned the Argus as of yet. If a consiracy existed, and it ever came to light that 'some' manufacturers did indeed hang their Agrus jumping customers out to dry, can imagine the loss of future business for them, and the flood of business to the more 'ethical' manufacturers who refused to take part?

Again, even if Booth does hold an interest in Vigil, engaging in such a conspiracy is far too much risk for far too little return. Only some Argus customers will be buying a new AAD, and of those, only some will buy a Vigil, and of those, Booth will only recieve some of the proceeds as I assume he is not the sole benefactor from Vigil sales. When you water it down that way, the reward in no way outweighs the risk of ruining the reputation of his rig manufacturing company.

Beyond that, Booth is at the helm of the company producing the top tandem system in the world. These are the most expensive rigs on the DZ, that make the most money, and therefore use up replacement parts and themselves get replaced more often than any other rig. It's not the keys to Fort Knox, but in the skydiving world it may as well be.

Factor in all that, plus that fact that he seems like a pretty good guy, and is busy jumping someplace cold, or high, or in some jungle, and you can rest assured he's not plotting against any AAD company.

[e.a.hernandez 0]

I am getting a Cypress 2 (on its way). My Argus is useless by now

[popsjumper 2]

You guys are hammering on Argus when it just may be reserve packing and gear maintenance issues.

Several comments in the reports indicate that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skydiverek 63]

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Unless you're talking about Santa Clause and his big beard, you must mean Bill Booth. I was not aware that he has an interest in Vigil

Back a few years ago Bill Booth was the man in the U.S., when it came to Vigil U.S. center. The U.S. Vigil address even pointed to the RWS office. I don't know if that still continues. Bill - feel free to add or correct any of this.

And, the PIA President is Cliff Schmucker, the top U.S. guy from Airtec company (Cypres), and probably the second most important Airtec person in the world (after the inventor Helmut Cloth from Germany).

[e.a.hernandez 0]

That is all posible (gear issues). The issue, at least for me, is that effectively I can't jump my Argus because I have to take it out of my javelin container. I could get a Racer and stick my Argus in there . But that would be more expensive than buying me a Cypress II or jumping without an AAD. Bottom line, I don't know if a conspiracy or not but my Argus is usesless on my javelin and I am grounded for this weekend .

[Coreefdiver 0]

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You guys are hammering on Argus when it just may be reserve packing and gear maintenance issues.

Several comments in the reports indicate that.

customer service, communication and response factor into the equation somewhere

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[NWFlyer 2]

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Even then, his suggetion that this creates $3M business opportunity is making the assumption that every Vigil will be replaced with another AAD. I'd be willing to be that half of the Vigil owners out there won't be replacing their AAD with anything due to cost.

I assume you meant Argus here?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Unstable 9]

Okay, I'm not buying the conspiracy theory either, but can I play devil's advocate? Why then, isn't Aviocom a Member of PIA?

=========Shaun ==========

[piisfish 140]

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Okay, I'm not buying the conspiracy theory either, but can I play devil's advocate? Why then, isn't Aviocom a Member of PIA?

Because PIA is infiltered by Airtec

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[Unstable 9]

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Because PIA is infiltered by Airtec

mmmmm YEeeees. I imagine now PIA as an evil lair and hideout for conspiracy mastermind Helmut Cloth. Muaaaahhahahahahahahaha

=========Shaun ==========

[riggerpaul 1]

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Okay, I'm not buying the conspiracy theory either, but can I play devil's advocate? Why then, isn't Aviocom a Member of PIA?

Because PIA is infiltered by Airtec

That might be true or not, but the brevity of it sort of leans toward the conspiracy thing, and doesn't really help explain it.

My understanding is that Airtec has alleged that Aviacom infringes on their patents, and as such, must not be allowed to join.

Personally, since I have never heard of any sort of legal actions being taken, I am disappointed that the mere allegation of infringement has had this effect.

Now, I am the first to admit that this is a rumor.

If someone has information that is better than this rumor, please tell us.

I will happily withdraw my statement if someone has something more substantial to say that refutes the rumor.

[piisfish 140]

My understanding is that someone got a couple of warnings, did nothing, and got the hammer on the head.
Poland and Portugal... 3rd world skydiving countries.. But now the problem has reached the US... So someone has got to take the blame.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[skydiverek 63]

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My understanding is that Airtec has alleged that Aviacom infringes on their patents, and as such, must not be allowed to join.

Personally, since I have never heard of any sort of legal actions being taken, I am disappointed that the mere allegation of infringement has had this effect.

Maybe it was cheaper and quicker this way (no lawyer costs, no 2-year lawsuits).

[Divalent 146]

From the Argus installation manual:
"Standard and running loops must be impregnated with silicone on the first 2.5 to 4 cm. ... The entire reserve loop should be impregnated with silicone except for 1cm above the disc"

and (in a larger font, all caps, centered prominently on the page):
"LOOP MATERIAL, SILICONIZING AND LOOP LENGTH ARE IMPORTANT TO ASSURE A CLEAN CUT."

From the incident report:

"Loop seemed to be dry, lacking in the recommended treatment of silicon by the manufacturer." and

"Reserve seems to have been packed in concordance with the manufacturers recommendations except for the absence of silicon on the closing loop."

Question: If the Manufacturer requires silicon on the loop, and the rigger fails to put the silicon on it, and the cutter fails to cut cleanly, is that a product operation defect or a rigging defect?

I don't know the answer; it seems to me it depends on whether the lack a silicon is a minor thing, not really necessary (or shouldn't be necessary) for the proper functioning of the unit, or whether it is an important thing. But it does appear (particularly because one excerpt above was in a large font and all caps) that the manufacturer went out of their way to stress that this was important to get a clean cut. And here we appear to have an incident where silicon may not have been used, and there was not a clean cut. (And the lack of willingness of the rigger to be forthcoming with their records for this rig does seem to raise questions in this context).

(And if the manufacturer say "you must do 'X'" is it fair to call that a "recommendation", or would be be more accurate to call that a "requirement".)

[riggerpaul 1]

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My understanding is that someone got a couple of warnings, did nothing, and got the hammer on the head.
Poland and Portugal... 3rd world skydiving countries.. But now the problem has reached the US... So someone has got to take the blame.

I don't understand. The matter of the current question was PIA membership.

That question has been around since long before the incidents you mention.

What has one to do with the other?

[theonlyski 8]

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The issue, at least for me, is that effectively I can't jump my Argus because I have to take it out of my javelin container. I could get a Racer and stick my Argus in there

Good luck finding a 2 pin cutter for it.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[theonlyski 8]

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(And if the manufacturer say "you must do 'X'" is it fair to call that a "recommendation", or would be be more accurate to call that a "requirement".)

Either way, its the manufacturers instructions, and they MUST be packed IAW the mfgr instructions.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[billbooth 10]

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Unless you're talking about Santa Clause and his big beard, you must mean Bill Booth. I was not aware that he has an interest in Vigil

Back a few years ago Bill Booth was the man in the U.S., when it came to Vigil U.S. center. The U.S. Vigil address even pointed to the RWS office. I don't know if that still continues. Bill - feel free to add or correct any of this.

And, the PIA President is Cliff Schmucker, the top U.S. guy from Airtec company (Cypres), and probably the second most important Airtec person in the world (after the inventor Helmut Cloth from Germany).

I own a portion of Vigil USA, which distributes Vigils only in North and South America. I have no stake in the manufacturing company in Belgium. I also sell Cypres and, until recently, Argus.

[DiverMike 5]

You are making conspiracy theory not fun by responding to the issue on a timely basis and presenting facts in an organized manner.

On another note, were you in Dallas in November 1963?

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[pchapman 279]

I just looked at the Aviacom / Argus website, and holy crap, they're screwed up.

All I see is Karel's letter. There's no link to the rest of the site, no buttons, nothing. They've essentially taken their whole site offline.

So I can't even look up some other Argus related information, unrelated to the cutter issue.

(Yes there will be cached versions around, and other organizations will have copies of their bulletins, and who knows, maybe direct links to sub-pages might still work. But that's not the point.)

[Coreefdiver 0]

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I just looked at the Aviacom / Argus website, and holy crap, they're screwed up.

All I see is Karel's letter. There's no link to the rest of the site, no buttons, nothing. They've essentially taken their whole site offline.

So I can't even look up some other Argus related information, unrelated to the cutter issue.

(Yes there will be cached versions around, and other organizations will have copies of their bulletins, and who knows, maybe direct links to sub-pages might still work. But that's not the point.)

holy crap is right


this move was spineless

If I were the PIA, I'd be talking to my lawyers

DS#727, DB Cooper #41, POPS #11065, SCR #13183, FA #2125, SCS #8306, HALO #309 SRA #5930

[PhreeZone 20]

Its not just the home page that has been removed. All the sub content is gone also. Any bookmarks you had to their site are not working either.

This link should take you to their SB's: http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209&Itemid=33 but it now says no content found.

Anyone know what is going on and if Argus is going to respond past ""Dealing with the FAA for answers"?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Question for those more knowledgeable about AADs: Are either of the two passages below serious enough for concern?

These are quotes from the incident report at the PIA site (http://www.pia.com/piapubs/ServiceBulletins/TEXASUSA211.pdf):

"Latest reserve repack date and details: unknown, multiple pack cards in rig, rigger unwilling to respond with copy of logbook page and date. No in-date pack card found in rig (believe fabrication of pack card and logbook entry may be attempted after comments made by jumper)"

If true, this could explain the rather long delay in getting the mfgs to inspect the equipment.
I would surmise that since the FAA was called in by Argus on a non-fatal, no-injury issue, there *might* be some issues about the owner and/or rigger that packed it last or documentation that claimed abc rigger packed it last is questionable.
Probably the best thing to do is get the FAA to agree not to prosecute/fine the owner or rigger or pilot so that accurate information about its repack history would be known.
Otherwise, this aspect of the issue is an unknown.

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"Loop seemed to be dry, lacking in the recommended treatment of silicon by the manufacturer."

Refer to the Argus manual. It does state issues about the silicone.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[rhys 0]

What a Load of rubbish.

Aviacoms problem is that they we honest about their problems and tried to address them publicly, while airtech and vigil were closed door, sweep it under the carpet.

I know of a couple of cypres incidents where the unit fired for no reason under canopy, my friend that was almost killed by a cypres 2 asked airtec what the problem was....

NO ANSWER... Not even any sorry or anything...NOTHING

Vigil had many many units fire out of thier supposed parameters.....

I am fortunate to be under a part 149 that does not make AAD's mandatory, I jump without one on my own gear.

The original cypres was reliable but none of the new ones are reliable enough to say thay are any better than the others.

All this is, is the manuafcturers eliminating competition.

If Cypres or Vigil are so great that they can remain, then they had better start explaining to us comsumers WTF happened when thier units failed.

I used to respect Cypres/Airtec as the reliable company, but since my friend (and his passenger) was almost killed by one of their cypres 2 (Tandem) units and they failed to even give him an explanation or evan an apology of what heppened and nothing was reported here or anywhere about it. This made me lose my respect and trust for any of them.

They didn;t even bother to contact him AT ALL.

From what I have witnessed it the aviacom have tried to be open and honest about thier development and this has been used by the other companies that have tried to sweep any of thier own problems under the carpet, to get rid of competition.

Nothing to do with safety, just money.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[mark 107]

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Its not just the home page that has been removed. All the sub content is gone also. Any bookmarks you had to their site are not working either.

This link should take you to their SB's: http://www.argus-aad.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=209&Itemid=33 but it now says no content found.

If you Google "Argus AAD SB" you can find a cached version of the page. The links to the pdf SB's still work as of now.

However, if Aviacom is no longer providing instructions for maintenance, does that mean a U.S. rigger can no longer pack any rig with an Argus?

Mark