Radical (or mainstream?) Islamic hatred

[turtlespeed 226]

When did the US use chemical weapons to kill thier OWN people for thier beliefs? Answer: Never

When the US hijack planes and run them into buildings killing thousands?
Answer: Never

When did we send troops?
Answer: after the above were well documented.

Are you not a fan of human rights?

Perhaps you should have traveled to Iraq. Those of us that have, see things a bit differently. Before you form an opinion about what should and should not be done, perhaps you should experiance the situation first hand.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[billvon 3,118]

>If you take away the oil, the Arabs have created nothing to sustain
>themselves.

Other than a culture, which they eked out of a desert with essentially no resources other than sand.

Heck, if you take away gambling from Vegas, the same thing would happen. And without those billions to pump in power and water, it would be an arid desert.

>They are like kids born into money who never had to work for it.

Given that we're the richest country in the world, and even someone on welfare has a better standard of living than most working people in third world countries, I'd say we're a lot more that way than they are.

>Now the Arabs/muslims swear to destroy them and us for helping.
>Green glass parking lot. Problem solved.

Naah, we'll continue to send them trillions of dollars; no force in the world would make us give up their cheap oil. If we are 'victims' of the Arabs we are victims of our own making; they have the crack and we'll pay our dealers almost anything for it.

[Ron 10]

Just a quick thought.

I don't know who my enemies are until:

1. You do something to piss me off.

Well, thats about it.

I don't need a better reason to call someone my enemy than them saying they hate me, or bombing me.

Now this whole thing was started back before ANY of us were alive....Like back in the Biblical times.

Personally I don't have a problem with ANY person until they start shit.

I can't be held resposable for the crusaides....they were wrong as hell, but I can't do anything about them. Just like modern Germains can't do anything about WWII.

But today people can do something, and if a person wants to call me a bad person and take steps to kill me or my family....Then they must die.

I personally think we should build a big fence, and as soon as someone crosses that fence they get shot. We should reduce our dependence on OIL and let the middle east figure a way to eat sand and oil. As soon as a militant leader screams death to the Americans...their head should explode by a snipers round.

Like it or not this is a reliegious war....It is for them and it will become one for us...It is unaviodable.

Killing for a God I have always found to be funny.

But ALL religions have done it.

And to answer your questions....Terrorist or Religious Warrior, Freedom Fighter or Guerilla. All is a matter of how you look at it.

But I don't think most Americans hate Islam....But they will not stand by while people are killed in the name of it.

Simple fact most Americans didn't care about the middle east till 9/11.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[PhillyKev 0]

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When did the US use chemical weapons to kill thier OWN people for thier beliefs?

Not exactly the same, but ever hear of Tuskegee? I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the first to come to mind.

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When the US hijack planes and run them into buildings killing thousands?

Fortunately, we have cruise missles to do that.

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When did we send troops?

We've had troops in the region ever since we got a foothold in the area following WWII.

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Are you not a fan of human rights?

I am, but human rights apply to all humans, not just those born in the same country as you.

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Perhaps you should have traveled to Iraq. Those of us that have, see things a bit differently. Before you form an opinion about what should and should not be done, perhaps you should experiance the situation first hand.

I don't have to go to Cuba to know the Bay of Pigs invasion was a mistake. I don't have to go to Germany to be appalled by the carpet bombing of Dresden.

I'm not trying to defend the actions of terrorists. But I hate hypocrisy, including when it's commited by our own nation. We all know there's more issues involved than fighting terrorism. We all know that if we completely isolate ourselves from the middle east it won't be an issue anymore. But there are other considerations, mostly economical and related to quality of life that are the reasons we are there in the first place. Don't try to sell me that we're completely riteous in all of our actions. We're doing what's best for our nation at the expense of others, bottom line. That's what every nation does, we just happen to be the biggest and baddest on the block at it.

[turtlespeed 226]

Kev,
I wasn't saying that we are rightous.

I was responding to a good vs. Bad argument earlier.

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I'm not trying to defend the actions of terrorists. But I hate hypocrisy,

HUH?
I'm sorry, but it sounds like you are, and if you mean the things that you have said before, then the statement above contradicts it's self.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PhillyKev 0]

I've never defended the actions of terrorists. Where did I say what they did was good. I'm just pointing out that we've done some of the same things. It's not hypocritical for me to say 2 wrongs don't make a right. It would be hypocrisy for me to say, them killing innocent people for their beliefs is wrong, but when we do it it's right. That's hypocrisy.

[Ron 10]

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Not exactly the same, but ever hear of Tuskegee? I'm sure there are other examples, but that's the first to come to mind.

Try walking in south central LA...And anyway we didn't kill the Tuskegee airmen...We didn't treat them fair, but we didn't kill them. And that was years ago...I had nothing to do with that.

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Fortunately, we have cruise missles to do that.

And the US does not just launch cruise missles into soft targets...We use laser guided bombs to take out military targets that are sometimes located in soft areas....Big difference.

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We've had troops in the region ever since we got a foothold in the area following WWII.

True and that was one of OBL big problems with us...We came in and hung around way to long.

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I am, but human rights apply to all humans, not just those born in the same country as you.

And several of these goverments are killing their own people. Plus giving the option of protecting my family or yours...I'll protect mine first. And some of these goverments were anti-American and suported terror. Such as Saddam paying suicide bombers.

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I don't have to go to Germany to be appalled by the carpet bombing of Dresden.

Which was nothing compared to the concentration camps. And the Atom bombs saved lives on both sides compared to an invasion.

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I'm not trying to defend the actions of terrorists. But I hate hypocrisy, including when it's commited by our own nation. We all know there's more issues involved than fighting terrorism. We all know that if we completely isolate ourselves from the middle east it won't be an issue anymore. But there are other considerations, mostly economical and related to quality of life that are the reasons we are there in the first place. Don't try to sell me that we're completely riteous in all of our actions. We're doing what's best for our nation at the expense of others, bottom line. That's what every nation does, we just happen to be the biggest and baddest on the block at it.

I agree with most of this. But it would almost be impossible to isolate ourselves. The world is shrinking and the simple fact is that they will hate us sinc we don't think like them...And add in the fact that we live so well compared to most of them....Its a bad thing.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,118]

>The world is shrinking and the simple fact is that they will hate us
>sinc we don't think like them...

From reading replies here, it seems more likely that we will hate them because they don't think like us. Heck, Jose hates _me_ because I don't agree with him.

I once spent a month in sub-Saharan Africa in a village that had never seen a white man before. (They had seen white women; the Peace Corps had a solid presence there.) They didn't know what to make of me at first, but in general they really liked white people in that small town. Go to the big cities there (Niamey) and they hated whites.

Why? Because in the big cities, most of the whites were the rich people who employed the natives for pennies a day in sweatshops. The natives died in the streets while the rich whites got good healthcare. They had armed guards and broken-glass-topped walls around their compounds to keep the shantytown people out. From their experience, whites could care less if the natives lived or died - and would often try to work them to death.

On the other hand, in the small towns, the only whites they had met were always trying to get them to start gardens, or dig new wells, or get them to take medicine. And while they didn't always agree with their advice, they realized that the whites they met (the Peace Corps) were doing their best to help them. And they thought that was really cool.

And these weren't ignorant people. When I mentioned I was a skydiver to Anabo he proceeded to pantomine a skydive for me (including pulling and flaring.) They all spoke Zarma and French and about a third spoke English. They knew a lot about white people, they just didn't understand us - like why we spent most of our lives working away from our families and our homes, and why so many americans actually chose to not have children. But that didn't matter, because they had learned that white people, when you met them in person, were basically good people.

It's all in what you do to other people, how you present yourself to them.

So how do we appear to Iraqis? We're the people who bomb their country. We're the soldiers who patrol their streets and kill people they know. When we accidentally kill innocent people, we're sorry and all, but we do it a lot. Put yourself in their shoes and you'd hate americans too; it's easy to hate people who kill other people you know even if they have good intentions.

So I think it's absurd to say they hate us because we don't think like them. They hate us because we kill them. We'd hate them if they did the same to us; heck, a lot of americans hate moslems because they can't make the distinction between terrorists and islam.

[Amazon 7]

Uh Ron... he was referring to a far more SINISTER BIOLOGICAL experiment

Tuskeegee Syphilis experiments.
Carried out on black test subjects in five southern counties, for 44 years (until 1972). Heading up the experiments were the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS), the Tuskeegee Institute, all branches of the U.S military. Local health departments worked with the PHS to keep the study subjects from receiving treatment. Subjects were not told of the nature of their disease, were excluded from treatment with penicillin, allowed to die, then were autopsied in trade for funeral expenses paid to relatives. In December of 1974, the U.S. Government paid $10 million in an out of court settlement to the surviving subjects.
Data from: Bad blood: The Tuskeegee syphilis experiment: NY: The FreePress.


Of course we also have this OTHER little problem....

Gulf War Syndrome Spreading
As reported in the LA Times, Sunday, March 9, 1997, Doctors and medical staff report that they have contracted the symptoms generally associated with "Gulf War Syndrome."
Garth Nicolson, founder and biochemist at the nonprofit Institute for Molecular Medicine, where GWS is studied said: ``I lost four teeth and had part of my lower jaw removed...Everyone in this office has had Gulf War illness,'' Nicholson reported. Government spokesmen express skepticism, saying that there is little evidence to the allegations that Gulf War illnesses are spreading.


BIG OOPS

[champu 1]

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Oh. The UN. That wonderfully relevant organization. Why should we let them tell us how much of OUR money we should give. Here's an example of the UN's stupidity...

I'm not going to defend the UN. I don't particularly care for it, and the US government tends to ignore it when it's wants to anyway.

The figure was just to show what some of the other major foreign aid contributors felt was a good target amount. The UN itself is, as you suggested, irrelevant. Many of the countries met it, and at least 20 did better than the US.

The amount of money we spend is likewise irrelevant if we do it foolhardily. I think trying to spur development by doing little more than throw money at a country is futile. And in fact, a best-case result is that it simply won't work. You can read Bill's post a few up that demonstrates this.

Pro-active -> peace corps -> teach medicine, agricultural techniques, etc. -> some improvement and where there is disagreement, there is still appreciation.

Passive money chucking -> impoverished classes -> broken glass walls -> bad news

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

Oh. The UN. That wonderfully relevant organization.
Why should we let them tell us how much of OUR money we should give. Here's an example of the UN's stupidity:

It must be really irrelevant, otherwise GWB would deliver a speech to it asking other countries for monetary and military aid. Oh wait, he did.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[Ron 10]

OK Bill...

And trust me I understand how they could feel.
And I think we should have never been over there in the first place. We should have built a big wall and let them figure out how to eat using sand and oil.

But the simple fact is that they never forgot the crusaides. Now I had about as much to do with the crusaides as you did with slavery. I have never killed anyone for not praying to my God. In fact I can't think of the last war that the US was in that was basied on religion...In fact I can't think of one. (Im sure someone will gladly point one out to me however).

As long as we are there...They are going to hate us....But I think they are going to hate us even if we are not there. Hate brings people together, makes groups stronger. So the radicals are going to use hate for us to bond and secure power.

There is no correct answer. There is no peaceful way to stop this. This is a combination of hundreds of years of distrust and hatred.

I have spent time with many Arabs....Over here they are nice people...Hell my Sister married a man from Turkey. But I have also been treated like an infidel before, a lower class not even human. Now I did nothing to these people, and tried to treat them with honesty....And they just treated me like crap. This was my first taste of the hatred, and to be honest being a white male my first taste of being on the recieving side of hatred for nothing I have done, but hatred for who I am. And they were the most back stabbing of people I have met. Some were very friendly to my face, but ripped me apart when I was not around.

So I know first hand the hatred that SOME of them have....It seems that ALL f the Arabs I have met that lived here didn't seem that way, but MOST of the ones that were visiting, or never lived here did treat me like an infidel. The problem is that there is no way to reverse hatred...It has to dissapear with time. Until that time I will stand on the wall with my gun. And anyone that tries to hurt my family or friends will die. Im not going to go out to find them, but Im not going to let them come find me unprepaired.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Uh Ron... he was referring to a far more SINISTER BIOLOGICAL experiment

Tuskeegee Syphilis experiments.

I didn't remember this. I had heard about it. But I didn't remember it.

Whenever I think of Tuskeegee...I think of the Airmen. They never lost a bomber under their watch.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[vmsfreaky1 0]

ok lets get this straight, what your not saying is that israel is a US base in the middle east, right once we have got that out of the way lets focus on the shite you have portrayed

Your US tax dollars never have funded the PA ok?!

Your US tax dollars have gotten Israel to where they are now.

Your US dollars have made Israel the biggest super power in the region, by no accident, if you think somehow that Israel is some poor country on the outer think again and look at the loans they are recieving from the US.

READ YOUR CHOMSKY!!!!!

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Sure, they have their reasons, are you saying that they are justified, and you agree with their stated objectives, the destruction of Israel and extermination of all Jews?

I beleive their stated oblectives are to END THE OCCUPATION! of which it seems most people are unaware, it's been thirty five years of occupation folks!!!! get the fuck out!!!!

[Tonto 1]

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Tell me a religion that hasnt been in war,for their belives... i know no religion that aint violent(havnt looked for one through)

im an atheist,

Buddhism.

Unless you count this as true.

Interestingly, you can be a Budhist athiest, as he was just a dude - never claimed to be a God. Just a dude with a plan on how to be happy in a crappy world.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"Just a dude with a plan on how to be happy in a crappy world."

Probably about the best way I've ever seen that described...way to go T.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Tonto 1]

Works for me...
t

It's the year of the Pig.

[billvon 3,118]

>good = Those that retaliate and wage war on terrorism.

>Pretty cut and dry there.

OK, so put the following in "bad and good" categories.

Countries that fund radical islamic terrorists so they kill people.

Countries that sell chemical weapons to evil dictators so they can use them against people.

Countries that use nuclear weapons against civilians.

Not so cut and dried, eh?

[captainpooby 0]

http://snsimages.tribune.com/media/photo/2003-11/10408338.jpg

More from the religion of peace. They teach their children to hate.

[billvon 3,118]

http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/984.html

>They teach their children to hate.

So do the israelis:
----
Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html
---

And the message is getting through in the US as well:

---------------------------------

In Colorado Springs, Colo., four men threaten to burn down a mosque.

In Irving, Texas, someone fires shots into the Islamic Center.

In Chicago, a passerby threatens violence against an Arab man.

The sad and awful truth is, you knew this was coming. Could have predicted it the moment four stolen planes plowed into a nation's heart. This is, after all, a troubling strain of our national personality that rises reliably to the surface in moments like this.

During the First World War, Americans of German heritage were widely treated as traitors and spies. During the Second World War, Americans of Japanese heritage were rounded up by the government and interned. During the Iranian hostage crisis, Americans of Middle Eastern heritage were reviled amid loose talk of mass deportation. And Tuesday afternoon, a friend of mine - though in that moment, I was embarrassed to call him that - said we should search out everyone in this country from the Middle East and send them back home.

. . . .

Take it as a reminder: The enemy is not Arab people or the Muslim religion. The enemy is fanaticism, extremism, intolerance, hate. The madmen who commandeered those planes don't represent the followers of Islam any more than the madmen who blow up abortion clinics represent the followers of Christ.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/2805487.htm

[PhreeZone 20]

Its in English... its not marketed towards locals

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[captainpooby 0]

Quote

http://www.loper.org/~george/archives/2003/Aug/984.html

>They teach their children to hate.

So do the israelis:
----
Israeli school textbooks as well as children’s storybooks, according to recent academic studies and surveys, portray Palestinians and Arabs as “murderers,” “rioters,” “suspicious,” and generally backward and unproductive. Direct delegitimization and negative stereotyping of Palestinians and Arabs are the rule rather than the exception in Israeli schoolbooks.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html
---

You dispute that truth of that? Funny, thats just the impression I get of people who strap explosives to themselves and detonate them to kill innocent women and children in the hope that they will meet 72 virgins in heaven.
I think that IS suspicious, murderous, riotous, and generally backward and unproductive.
I guess I'm just missing something.

• Quote

[sundevil777 102]

From the Washington report on Middle East Affairs article, 2nd paragraph:

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Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University studied 124 elementary, middle- and high school textbooks on grammar and Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. Bar-Tal concluded that Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel.

I don't understand the 'humanitarian' part, but what about the rest is not true?

The 3rd paragraph:

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“The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel. Within this frame of reference, Arabs were delegitimized by the use of such labels as ‘robbers,’ ‘bloodthirsty,’ and ‘killers,’” said Professor Bar-Tal, adding that there has been little positive revision in the curriculum over the years.

They do want to hurt Jews (any Jews), and do want to annihilate the State of Israel. I find it interesting that the the 'racist' and 'hatred' promoting references are to individual words instead of bothering to even show parts of sentences.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 3,118]

>You dispute that truth of that? Funny, thats just the impression I get
> of people who strap explosives to themselves and detonate them to
> kill innocent women and children in the hope that they will meet 72
> virgins in heaven.

>I think that IS suspicious, murderous, riotous, and generally
> backward and unproductive.

It is. So is murdering doctors, but that doesn't mean all christians belong to the army of god and kill doctors - just as not all (or even most) arabs are terrorists.

Many arabs teach their children that the US and Israel are evil satans trying to destroy them. Israelis teach their children Arabs are all evil terrorists. You yourself have claimed that they are murderous, riotous, unproductive etc in language that remarkably mirrors explanations of why blacks were just 'basically shiftless' around the turn of the century. And the people who used that language defended that position as strongly as you do, using real-world examples of how blacks were just plain worse than whites.

As long as we teach hate and racism, the killing will continue. Arabs will teach their children that we hate them, and they will be correct. If you want that - then by all means, try to get people to hate arabs as much as you do. Perhaps in 20 years we can have the kind of "peace" that Israel now has with the Palestinians.

Or we can stop teaching hatred, and realize that terrorists are terrorists, not arabs. They come in all forms, from good christian ex-US military men to white middle aged women to arab islamic terrorists. They are the ones I despise, and they are the ones we should focus our anger on, not on people who have done nothing other than have the "misfortune" of being born in the wrong part of the world.