On the Same Page?

[popsjumper 2]

The importance of instructors all being "on the same page."

At your DZ, are all your instructors "on the same page" with respect to students?

Meaning that they all teach the same performance techiques the same way and teach the knowledge requirements the same way.

Example:
Instructor A teaches how to turn using one method while Instructor B teaches a different method.

"A" signs off on progression cards after simply telling the student the info and "B" doesn't sign off unless the student proves he/she knows the info without coaching.


For the record, I prefer that all the instructors teach the same thing the same way to the students. Alternative methods can be discussed and taught AFTER initial training, say, after graduating from the training course and working on A-license requirements.

I think the knowledge-based requirements on the progression card should be a quiz session to test to see if the student actually understands the material rather than a teaching session. You know how it is with many students - teach 'em today, forgotten tomorrow. Only sign off if the student shows he/she knows the material.

How does it work at your DZ and what are your preferences with respect to teaching students?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[feuergnom 29]

nice can of worms... i'll give it a shot


Being on the same page should be out of any question. if a staff can't agree on rules and on how what should be done, it's a sign of poor decision-making.

back to real life: let two people explain the same thing, you'll get two answers using different approaches. nece you can be on the same side and still sound different.

i guess the most important thing would be a consenus, that only the teaching staff (affis & coaches) is to work with students, all others (yes we know you have the best intentions) - STFU & go foxtrott oscar

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 21]

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..... only the teaching staff (affis & coaches) is to work with students, ....

Then again, what about the non-current AFFI with loads of instructional jumps that hears a newly rated C or I doing a very poor job right before loading the aircraft?

There is the "company answer" and there is good instruction, and sometimes these do not coincide.

Continuing with comments on Popsjumper's original question:

Being on the "same page" is good in a way because it confuses the students less, but different opinions from different instructors can be good. An instructor needs to know if a particular student is more comfortable with rigid "rules" or if they are capable of using judgment, (and how much). Eventually we must insure that they have learned judgment.

Teaching skydiving to an individual places us in an enviable position (compared to teaching a classroom of students). We are usually working one-on-one with a student. This allows us to modify our techniques (and even the information itself) to benefit the learning style of the student.

To teach all students using the same techniques is a waste of that opportunity.

Note: Now the real challenge is to make the student understand that what you are teaching them might be different for another student, and that they should not pass along this information without explanation.

[jimjumper 25]

When we teach the FJC the student is given a written 2 page quiz at the end of the classroom. If I teach the FJC I give them the quiz and walk away. When they are done I deliberately make sure they are reviewed by another instructor. We all have different teaching techniques and sometimes the student isn't able to assimilate the information the way the instructor is presenting it. Getting another instructor presenting in a different way usually gets the information to the student. I would rather the student knows the information than quibble over whether I or another instructor has a better or more precise teaching method. This follows thru to further levels and more information for the student.

[popsjumper 2]

OK...there's some confusion.

I'm not talking about teaching techniques/methods of the instructor. We all know that you should tailor your method to the student and his/her best way of learning. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking skydiving techniques and knowledge.

Different arm positions to make the turn...different leg postions for this or that...different door postions...different Level 1 dive flows...different "how-to" on canopy control, etc.

Have you never heard, "The other instructor told me to do it like this and now you're telling me to do it differently. Which is correct and why are your confusing me?"

Ergo, instructors "not on the same page".

Also, nobody has addressed the A-license progression card sign-off process.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[wildfan75 1]

I am lucky enough to come from a small dz, and we do s/l. By the time someone is on their 10-20 second delay and starting to learn about turning and tracking, we coaches*** and instructors take note that they are returning and usually one of us regulars take them under our wing so they are getting consistant info. Our students really are priority and now that I'm beyond student status, I'm jealous.

Its easy to ask questions such as "What did you do on your last dive?" "Ok, turns. How did you do them?" "Ok, and how did it go?". You can then reinforce good responses or maybe give them another way to try if it didn't work out. It works for us, but again, we are a small dz and do not face the challenges of larger dz's.

***I have to admit that part of the reason why I responded to this thread was because I got my coach rating this weekend and was dying to be able to say "We coaches and instructors" someplace. But the info above is 100% accurate.

[bodypilot1 0]

Great topic.
Years ago I worked with an AFF instructor that used to fail students that didnt do a perfect back loop on level 6. They ended up not going all the way over and not finishing the flip only to end up on their back. They would get onto their belly within a couple seconds though and continue the skydive flawlessly. I called bullshit on this because the dive is for the student to recover from instability. He still wouldn't change and probably still fail students today for this.
DZ's that pass students from instructor to instructor, need to have instructors that teach the same way.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[riggerrob 643]

DZ's that pass students from instructor to instructor, need to have instructors that teach the same way.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!
Each school needs a written set of standards (pass criteria) - to be completed - before a student can graduate to the next level.
Those standards should be nailed to the wall where everyone can see them.

[Bolas 5]

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DZ's that pass students from instructor to instructor, need to have instructors that teach the same way.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!
Each school needs a written set of standards (pass criteria) - to be completed - before a student can graduate to the next level.
Those standards should be nailed to the wall where everyone can see them.

Non Instructor here, but isn't all that info already in the SIM?

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[popsjumper 2]

No. A generalization, yes. But that leaves the door open to vast, widesrpead interpretation as indicated above. And skydiving "how-to" is not included at all except in just a very few instances.

Personally, I would be pissed as a student if I was failed on Level 6 because I didn't do a perfect backloop and everything else went well.

This "interpretation" makes me favor the 1 student - 1 Instructor all-the-way-through process in that the student gets to focus on 1 technique and has a better chance of actually learning something as opposed to having to re-start the learning with every instructor. There's plenty of time to learn other techniques after graduating to "self-supervised" status or post-A license.

Now keep it coming. And...what about the sign-offs???????
Anybody?

I contend that the sign-off on knowledge-based line items should be a quiz session, not a teaching session. Anybody?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[peek 21]

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I contend that the sign-off on knowledge-based line items should be a quiz session, not a teaching session. Anybody?

Mine tend to be both. I try to teach someone one of those items, and then tell them to go to another instructor and show them that they know it.

But the wording of the "pilot briefing" item implies a lecture, so some of the other items turn into a lecture too.

At least I teach the subject until they understand it.

[riggerrob 643]

But the wording of the "pilot briefing" item implies a lecture,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I try to spread that learning over four or five jumps.

The process starts with the student over-hearing me briefing the pilot.
Then I give them a short lecture about jump runs and what to tell the pilot.
Then they brief the pilot for several loads. Their first pilot briefing usually involves a lot of prompting from me, but by the end of the PFF program, they should be able to brief the pilot without assistance.

This is just one example of the process that gradually shifts responsibility from the instructor to the student.

[bodypilot1 0]

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This "interpretation" makes me favor the 1 student - 1 Instructor all-the-way-through process in that the student gets to focus on 1 technique and has a better chance of actually learning something as opposed to having to re-start the learning with every instructor.

Bingo.

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Bolas 5]

Quote

I contend that the sign-off on knowledge-based line items should be a quiz session, not a teaching session. Anybody?

The DZ I trained at was Skydive Orange in VA. The school was a separate company. We used the category system, not levels. You took an oral quiz to pass each level. I had various instructors and coaches but the basics were the same.

Once you got your "A" Lambert gave everyone the "You now have a license to kill yourself" speech.
They stressed safety with everything.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[tmaricle55 0]

I had the same instructor all the way though and even my "A". Even chased my instructor to another dropzone! Mike G was the best and I wanted to continue learning from the same person all the way through. He could watch my progression and knew what needed to be worked on each time.

Muff Brother # 3883, SCR # 14796 ICD # 1 - Pres.
Yeah, I noticed and I think it's funny!

[popsjumper 2]

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I contend that the sign-off on knowledge-based line items should be a quiz session, not a teaching session. Anybody?

Quote

Mine tend to be both. I try to teach someone one of those items, and then tell them to go to another instructor and show them that they know it.

I favor teaching them today and quizzing them tomorrow or next week until they are able to retain the knowledge without coaching.

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But the wording of the "pilot briefing" item implies a lecture, so some of the other items turn into a lecture too.

Yes, it would appear so with the wording on the progression card. It pains me that one can sit through a lecture and not retain a thing and still get signed off.

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At least I teach the subject until they understand it.

And I try to keep teaching it until they retain it whereas some instructors apparently could not care less about information retention...just tell 'em and sign off, understanding and retention be damned.

I've seen it at nearly every DZ I've visited.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[popsjumper 2]

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I had the same instructor all the way though and even my "A". Even chased my instructor to another dropzone! Mike G was the best and I wanted to continue learning from the same person all the way through.

You had the best...why settle for anything less? You are one of the extremely lucky ones.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239