Bowling For Columbine

[Canuck 0]

Yeah Canada is a pretty cool place to live - this time of year - literally. Guns don't kill us - the freezing ass weather does!!

Canuck

[FliegendeWolf 0]

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Why does it matter what something was designed to do, anyway? Why not talk about what it actually does?

The purpose for an object's existence makes for a pretty good indicator of how it will actually be used.

Do you suggest that axes are predominantly used to kill or threaten death? What about rope? How about baseball bats? Would you say that 95% of the time a golf club is used either to kill, attack, or threaten someone?

And what about guns? Are they predominantly used for purposes other than killing or threatening death? It is true that one could use a gun for target practice, but what is the purpose of target practice? To make one better at killing or threatening death.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[samhussey 0]

Just wondering peoples opinions here....

If there were no guns, or weapons of any type, do you think that people would use other 'innocent' objects, like pens, baseball bats etc... to kill each other anyway?

[mnischalke 0]

they already do--and did in 29% of the murders last year according to the FBI.

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[samhussey 0]

Yeah but if there were no guns, would there have been less murders? I guess it really boils down to whether you think guns kill people or people kill people. I like Eddie Izzards view:

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Of course people kill people, but I think the gun helps

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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they already do--and did in 29% of the murders last year according to the FBI.

Yes and because other things are bad, there is obviously no use to discuss guns.

I have never understood that argument. Yes, people get killed by other means than just guns. How astute of people to notice. However, that doesn't mean we should therefor not discuss guns.

[goose491 0]

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1. Bowling for Columbine isn't about gun control any more than Basic Instinct is about Sharon Stone spreading her legs in the interrogation room. One part of the movie - yes, a part that many people remember - yes. But the point of the movie - NO. This is a movie that requires critical engagement and intelligent viewing. It's about the prevailing social conditions that manifest in many forms, one of which is a completely undeniable high hand gun murder rate.

A very wonderful Post.
Refreshing to see some intellect brought to try and get back to the topic at hand. I was getting a little frustrated at the fact that this was turning into another tired Gun Control thread.

I think you've hit the nail on the head in terms of what Bowling is all about.

Call it 'documentary' call it 'entertainment'... call it 'rubbish'; it's a film that just had to be made and it would be nice if we could discuss the topics it brings forth now rather than simply deny that there are problems.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Kennedy 0]

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Good points I'd say...
I've found a site that backs up your side pretty well.

That site is a croc! lol, you can't debunk someones arguments by picking apart his/her editing. "Oh, he put two ads together! That wasn't just one add!".... hehe. Was Willie Horton not realeased to commit more crime? "Oh! It says 'Willie Horton released. Then kills again.' when in actuality, all he did was assault and rape!"... Is that an argument against Bowling for Columbine? Really? Makes me laugh.

They take another shot at Moore saying that he's stupid for thinking the NRA went to Columbine intentionally after the shootings when in fact, it was planned ahead of time. Well, for those of you who haven't seen the documentary. That is what is suggested, but only until it is actually brought up (by Heston) that the trip was pre-planned. I'm pretty sure Moore knew that... his point, and he makes it perfectly clear when meeting with Mr. Heston, is that it's pretty DAMN insensitive to hold an NRA rally a stones throw away from and only days after some kids shot up their school! Regardless of whether or not it was already planned by the NRA and especially when the family and friends of the victims pleaded with them not to come.

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I still think it's a wonderful movie, but I'm a lot more skeptical of it's 'truths' now. Thanks man.

Well, don't be skeptical of the ones that matter. i.e. the eleven thousand plus that die to guns in the US every year. The fact that the black man is not properly represented in the American media. The fact that the US has given arms and money to known terrorists, flip flopped from one side of a battle to another to suit their own agenda. The welfare program -hehe remember that part? What a poor woman- that takes you off welfare and makes you work a job that you will never be able to quit and that will never give you enough to pay your way out of the program (has slavery really been abolished?) The fact that the NRA and KKK came about at the same time... for similar reasons.

I could go on... now tell me... Did Micheal Moore make those things up?
Granted, he's done a little 'creative editing'... but has he twisted the truth.... or simply begun untwisting it?

ok, let's try some "creative editing"

That is an argument against Bowling for Columbine. Really.
Take another shot at Moore, he's stupid.
His point is pretty DAMN insensitive.
The NRA meeting was required by state law, read the site you called a croc
Well, be skeptical of Moore's facts. He flip flopped them to suit his own agenda.
I could go on... Micheal Moore Did make those things up.

Granted, I did a little 'creative editing'... but have I twisted your meaning.... or simply begun untwisting it?

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The fact that the NRA and KKK came about at the same time... for similar reasons.

This is such a joke that I won't even touch it. I'm sure some else has.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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What do we really need hand-guns for? I think it's funny that all these guys who say they have a ".44 magnum" because they like to hunt, etc. What the hell type of animal are you going to kill with a .44 magnum?

Right, this shows you're up on hunting trends. Handgun hunting is growing faster than any other aspect. And to have you know, I was along on hunts where a gentleman took a deer, a boar, and a black bear with a .44 magnum revolver.

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I would never for a second suggest taking away shotguns, rifles, and other guns designated for hunting.
But honestly, what does someone need a hand-gun for? Give me one reason someone needs a hand-gun...
And don't just say "to protect themselves". That's bullshit.

Well, I suppose 2.5 million prevented crimes is bullshit. OK. So if preventing crimes is bullshit and you request I not say self defense.... collections, heirlooms, the challenge of marksmanship.

By the way, it's the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs.

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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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By the way, it's the Bill of Rights, not the Bill of Needs.

Still makes me wonder why certains arms are not permitted though. Maybe the Bill of Rights does not have as much power as some would like it to have?

[Kennedy 0]

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Still makes me wonder why certains arms are not permitted though. Maybe the Bill of Rights does not have as much power as some would like it to have?

What certain arms are you referring to, and maybe we can discuss it civilly this time?

Not have as much power? Go tell that to the ACLU.

Or do you mean that its intent and meaning has been obscured and diminished over time thorough poor legislation and poor judicial review? If that's the case, I agree with you.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[SkyDekker 1,465]

nuclear arms, chemical arms etc.

Hence I would assume that the Bill of Rights does not give you the right to bare all arms?

[Kennedy 0]

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Hence I would assume that the Bill of Rights does not give you the right to bare all arms?

I have the right to bare my arms anytime I want, even when it's cold outside. As to my right to bear arms, is no more absolute than any other right. Just as no law is anymore binding than your decision to obey it. Hence the balancing act the Supreme court applies to so many other vital issues. e.g. Free speech not including shouting fire in a crowded theater. Individual rights versus good of the whole, etc.

witty subliminal message
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[PhillyKev 0]

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It's not an issue of whether an item can be used for murder, but it is an issue of whether it is specifically designed for that purpose.

Guns are not designed for murder. I own guns and don't plan to murder anyone. I don't plan to shoot anyone either. I plan to go to the range and enjoy myself, and I plan to stop someone from killing me if they try.

I'm literraly 100yds away from where Mumia Abu Jamal murdered Daniel Faulkner. I walk over a memorial to him every day on my way to and from work.

Crack addicts, dealers, and transsexual prostitutes walk past my front door in the middle of the night.

I'm a few blocks from where a guy who I know from being a bouncer at a club across the street from where I am now shot at Alan Iverson a couple months ago.

I've had muggings attempted on me twice. First time I drove him off with my knife, second time a crowd turned the corner just as it started and he fled.

A couple blocks in every direction from my house a young woman was raped by Troy Graves, a serial rapist, and one of them was killed.

The point of the above? I am responsible for my protection. In the case of the girl murdered by the rapist, the police came to her house after the neighbors called the police to report screaming. The police knocked on the door, but no one answered, so they left, while she was being strangled to death.

In a perfect world, or a perfect community, or whatever you want, no one would need guns. I don't live in Utopia. Get the violent criminals off of the streets (my suggestion is free up the prison system and law enforcement by getting rid of draconian drug prohibitions) and then I won't feel that I need a handgun. Until then, I won't repeat the cliche, but I'm not giving mine up without a fight.

[PhillyKev 0]

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nuclear arms, chemical arms etc.

Hence I would assume that the Bill of Rights does not give you the right to bare all arms?

It has been interpreted that the idea was to allow every citizen to arm themselves in the same manner as the average, contemporary foot soldier. These days that would equate to hand guns, rifles, shotguns, and I would argue automatic rifles.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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I have the right to bare my arms anytime I want, even when it's cold outside. As to my right to bear arms

Funny enough, I changed it from bear to bare before I hit "posy reply"

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As to my right to bear arms, is no more absolute than any other right.

Exactly, so it could be possible that at some point in time a judge will decide that guns are not part of the arms one can bear under the Bill of Rights. Or am I wrong in thinking that?

I guess what I am trying to say is that the Bill of Rights really doesn't offer that much protection?

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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It has been interpreted that the idea was to allow every citizen to arm themselves in the same manner as the average, contemporary foot soldier. These days that would equate to hand guns, rifles, shotguns, and I would argue automatic rifles.

obviously that interpretation is open to change.

But, the average foot soldier really carries a very small number of arms. I am sure the NRA would not really stand for that large of a restriction. The average footsoldier does not carry a magnum .44.

[goose491 0]

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The fact that the NRA and KKK came about at the same time... for similar reasons.

This is such a joke that I won't even touch it. I'm sure some else has.

[Kennedy 0]

ahhhh, the voice of reason....

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Exactly, so it could be possible that at some point in time a judge will decide that guns are not part of the arms one can bear under the Bill of Rights. Or am I wrong in thinking that?

A judge can decide anything he damned well pleases, but that black robe doesn't make him right. (except in his own courtroom)

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before I hit "posy reply"

not your day, huh?

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I guess what I am trying to say is that the Bill of Rights really doesn't offer that much protection?

It only offers the protection you can ensure for yourself. Maybe that's why the framers thought it was important?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[SkyDekker 1,465]

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A judge can decide anything he damned well pleases, but that black robe doesn't make him right. (except in his own courtroom)

Ok, then when is a judge, or any person for that matter, right?

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not your day, huh?

Apparently not

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It only offers the protection you can ensure for yourself. Maybe that's why the framers thought it was important?

Though one could ensure adequate protection for one self by training martial arts and sometimes some advance planning and common sense or maybe even using a knife.

Hence, guns do not have to a part of the rights under the Bill of Rights. It does not say in the Bill of Rights that americans will be allowed to carry along guns of all types?

[storm1977 0]

I have an interesting question.

People are bitching that 11K people were killed by guns in the USA last year. How many of those deaths were while commiting a crime?

Example, Guy breaks into my house, and I shoot him.

It is not like 11,000 innocent people died from guns.
If you are a drug dealer, or a gang banger, or are breaking into houses, and you end up shot... Well, it goes with the job.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[goose491 0]

The farmers have wild animals to fend off.

The people in the city have no one to fend off anymore.

The idea behind arming the average Joe to the same degree as your average foot soldier was incase the government went all villainous on you and you had to overthrow it. I really don't think the American people will ever have to defend their homes and families from American soldiers. Do you? So what's there to be afraid of?

Unless of course... there is the king of England.


"If I didn't have this gun, the King of England could just walk in here anytime he wants and start shoving you around."

-Homer J. Simpson

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[Kennedy 0]

The joke was the mistake second half of the sentence, not the mistake in the first. brief history

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[PhillyKev 0]

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The people in the city have no one to fend off anymore.

We don't? How do you figure that? If guns are banned, suddenly they won't exist anymore and all violent crime will stop? I'm pretty sure there were muggers, robbers, rapists and murderers before guns existed, and they will exist afterward as well.