Different Standards

[Nightingale 0]

This came from something someone said in the "marriage" thread, and I didn't want to hijack.

Many fire/police departments, as well as the US military, have different fitness requirements for men and women. The requirements for the women are easier to meet.

Is this an appropriate practice?

[PhillyKev 0]

I said No...but it really depends. Fitness standards should fit the job duties. For instance, if a person can't carry a full grown man down a flight of stairs, I don't see why they couldn't join the fire department as the fire engine driver, or some other task that doesn't require the same physical capabilities.

[jlmiracle 7]

Quote

I said No...but it really depends. Fitness standards should fit the job duties. For instance, if a person can't carry a full grown man down a flight of stairs, I don't see why they couldn't join the fire department as the fire engine driver, or some other task that doesn't require the same physical capabilities.

Exactly. I don't want equality to compromise my safety. I'm all for girl power and all that, but overall men are just physically stronger in most cases.

Judy

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[Chute 0]

Being in the military. I am on the side of either can do or can't. I hear a lot of bitching about women can not do the heavy stuff like the men. BS!! I see a lot of week scrony guys, TODAY. They are the ones bitching. I have worked with both lazy, dumb ass. Men AND Women. And I have worked with Hard Chargers as well. If you can do it then do it. If you can't. Shut up!!

Bottomless Beers and Blue Skies!

* Brother_Brian *
D.S.W.F.S.B. #2

[pilotdave 0]

When visiting the US Army Aeromedical Research Lab a few months ago, I saw a lab where they test medical equipment for use on aircraft. I saw a really cool stretcher designed for the army, which had almost every piece of emergency medical equipment you could need built right in. Everything from a heart monitor to a defribulator. It could basically turn any vehicle or helicopter into an ambulance. But the army rejected the idea. Why? It weighed too much. A female medic only has to be able to lift 60 lbs. Two female medics can't even carry one average size soldier. THAT is messed up. I have no problem with women in the military as long as they are capable of doing their job. If you can only lift 60 lbs, whether you are male or female, DON'T BE A MEDIC!

Dave

[Nightingale 0]

agreed!

When I had my last martial arts rank test, the requirements for me and the guy who tested the month before were exactly the same. If you couldn't do it, you didn't pass. If you didn't pass, you couldn't be an assistant instructor. End of story.

Requirements are in place for a reason. I want lifeguards who'll be able to pull me out of the water. I want firefighters who could carry me down a ladder. I want cops strong enough to protect me from someone else, and I want soldiers who can take care of themselves and their buddies on the battlefield. I don't care what gender they are. If they meet the standard, they meet the standard.

[skyyhi 0]

I work in business. It wouldn't matter if the job I do was handled by a man or a woman - they must be equally qualified or not even apply. This same standard should be in place for physical jobs as well.

No favoritisms. . .gotta be able to do the job. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[rehmwa 2]

Does anyone want to escalate this to an Affirmative Action discussion?

I don't.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[goose491 0]

Nice thread! I thought about creating the very same poll when that post came about.

I voted the last one. The firefighter example provided in the other thread was the best one I can think of.

You are required to be able to pick up a body (well, hopefull an unconscious person) and run up/down stair with it to be a firefighter... If you can't do that... then you can't be a firefighter... I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

It does mean that more women get turned down then men. But should the standard be lowered because of it? I say HELL NO! If you got to be strong to do the job, you're going to do a poor job if you're not strong.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[gmanpilot 0]

I voted yes, and I am a guy in the biz. We NEED women in law enforcement. It is very difficult to find a woman who can do 10 pullups, 50 pushups, etc.

Now, I do NOT agree with seperate standards for getting into specialized units, SWAT, HRT, etc.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

The requirements for the women are easier to meet.

Is this an appropriate practice?

Yes, it falls under the rules for the handicapped. Kind of like the Special Olympics.

[SkydiverRick 0]

Quote

Quote

The requirements for the women are easier to meet.

Is this an appropriate practice?

Yes, it falls under the rules for the handicapped. Kind of like the Special Olympics.

Nothing like sticking your finger in the fan now and then.

never pull low......unless you are

[cvfd1399 0]

I am a firefighter(who employs a woman) and a cop. It should be the same standard all across the board. Just b/c you are a woman does not magically change the fact that that person inside that house weighs 250 lbs, or make that 10 Lb maul or axe swing like a fly swatter. The hurst extrication tool weighs 70 Lbs and you are required to lift it over your shoulders to get a good cut on most car and truck doors. Every man in our department can do it but she cannot. She refuses to cut the grass when it is her turn and usually bribes someone to do it. She has even called her son to come to work and cut the grass. Other than her physical qualities she is great with first aid calls! She is the person I would want working on me if i were hurt, but it still does not change the fact that she cannot do the job like it should be. So far she has been lucky and has not been presented with a situation where she had to rescue a victim or a firefighter, god help both of them if she does. As far as the cop thing women can pretty much do the same job, there is more tools in police work to get around not being a big person such as, subject control spray(pepper), batons, guns, and the most important thing a radio. If you think you are about to get your a$$ wipped by someone draw your weapon on them and call for back up. It only takes 6-12 pounds of force on that trigger to stop a subject that is assaulting you with deadly force.

[Kramer 0]

Quote

I want lifeguards who'll be able to pull me out of the water. I want firefighters who could carry me down a ladder. I want cops strong enough to protect me from someone else, and I want soldiers who can take care of themselves and their buddies on the battlefield. I don't care what gender they are. If they meet the standard, they meet the standard.

Hallelujia and Amen.

-Kramer

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[Nightingale 0]

Quote

We NEED women in law enforcement. It is very difficult to find a woman who can do 10 pullups, 50 pushups, etc.

I can. So can most of the women I train with. If you want the job, get in the proper physical condition to be able to do the job.

[downwardspiral 0]

Concerning the military... if you can not carry a wounded person to relative safety, you should be in the rear with the gear. Plain and simple.

www.FourWheelerHB.com

[Zenister 0]

no.

particularly when (by army run times) an 18 year old male is expected to be far closer to an olympic level 1 mile time (x2 for standard 2 mile test) to max the run 'standard' than a 18 year old female. Yet both scores are counted on the same scale for promotion points.

wonders if it is nessesary to point out the oxymoron in the idea of "different standard"

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[gmanpilot 0]

Quote

In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


We NEED women in law enforcement. It is very difficult to find a woman who can do 10 pullups, 50 pushups, etc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I can. So can most of the women I train with. If you want the job, get in the proper physical condition to be able to do the job.

Well, you are the rare exception and I'm impressed. MOST men can't do 10 unassisted pullups (pretty lame, I know). I would guess that maybe 1 in 10,000 women can do 10 unassisted pullups. But I'll tell ya, I have never had to do any pullups in the field. I've done lots of weird shit, but no pullups. It is not necessary to be Zena, The Warrior Princess to be an effective female LEO. Mostly what I want from any partner is someone who won't hesitate to make the right decision, take the shot and kill the badguy when it's necessary. That's what will keep you alive.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

MOST men can't do 10 unassisted pullups (pretty lame, I know).

I think I did 6 on my last PT test. I've never been good at pull ups. I remember back in 96 I could easily do 15 when I went to airborne school. Then I started lifting weights. Put on 20 lbs and see what it does to your pull up max.

[Nightingale 0]

then adjust the standards to fit the job requirements.

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

But I'll tell ya, I have never had to do any pullups in the field. I've done lots of weird shit, but no pullups. It is not necessary to be Zena, The Warrior Princess to be an effective female LEO. Mostly what I want from any partner is someone who won't hesitate to make the right decision, take the shot and kill the badguy when it's necessary. That's what will keep you alive.

How about something simple, like wrestling a 250 pounder to the ground so he can be cuffed and hobbled? If it's you and one other cop on the scene, would you rather have someone who can do the physical requirements, or someone who was passed unfairly?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

I said No...but it really depends. Fitness standards should fit the job duties. For instance, if a person can't carry a full grown man down a flight of stairs, I don't see why they couldn't join the fire department as the fire engine driver, or some other task that doesn't require the same physical capabilities.

It doesn't depend, it just needs requirments that fit the job.

Wouldn't you want the driver strong enough to control the engine, and stong enough to uncap hydrants and move hoses?

Whatever the appropriate standards are, I want them to apply to everyone who needs to do the job.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[gmanpilot 0]

Quote

How about something simple, like wrestling a 250 pounder to the ground so he can be cuffed and hobbled? If it's you and one other cop on the scene, would you rather have someone who can do the physical requirements, or someone who was passed unfairly?

Around 15 years ago, my partner and I served a search warrant on that exact dude in an airport, except he was the regional "toughman contest" winner. My partner was about 5'8", maybe 175. I was 6' about 200, and was, at that time, relatively unskilled in CQC. In other words, the big fucker scared me. Long story short, "Rooster" (he raised fighting roosters) wanted to fight too, and just before he went to hit my partner, I told him that he scared me, and if he hit my partner, I was going to shoot him in the head, and I would have been justified....no way was I going to fight that gorilla. He decided not to fight, and went to jail when we found what we were looking for. No pullups needed.

_________________________________________
-There's always free cheese in a mouse trap.

[Kennedy 0]

So, as a patrol officer, your solution to every person that scares you is draw your duty weapon? OK, now you scare me.

Good job defusing the situation and all, but that won't work everytime. Not without killing people that might otherwise still be walking. [well, pacing is probably more appropriate for an 8x10 cell]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[freeflir29 0]

Senarios like this are the exact reason I started lifting again. I think I have a duty to that drunk dumbass and the 200+ witnesses to be strong enough to take him down without shooting him. In my environment I don't even have the choice of waiting for back up. It's take care of it NOW.....however that has to happen. We've already had one semi bad incident cause the "officer" was getting his ass kicked.