A victory for our constitution

[Kennedy 0]

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Have you ever needed the service of a doctor, lawyer, engineer... etc??? I only ask because without any public funding I highly doubt you would ever have an educated class numerous enough to provide needed services. Do you really think that enough people can afford the price tag of a GOOD COMPLETE education on their own?

Without public funding schools would operate just fine; as private ventures where parents would be able interact and communicate with instructors and administrators. Do you know how much we pay for a good complete education? Thanks to taxes and higher ed prices, we spend more in a lifetime than if our kids attended private schools kindergarten through college. I'd take that route, but I still have to fund public schools, so I can't afford it.

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Perhaps you wouldn't mind having to recruit thousands upon thousands of the professionals from around the world to fill your deficit.

That seems to work fine for the rest of the world. Care to guess what percentage of the world's doctors have been educated in the US of A? Or what percentage of a given medical programs graduates will leave the US for other countries?

The US has more than enough applicants to fill every med school in the country. The problem is how they are administered.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,116]

>Anyone who "believes" in public education has probably gone
>through it and is thus incapable of realizing how terrible a failure it is.

I went through both public and private educational systems; my parents taught in public schools most of their lives. Public schools vary widely, which is why people often move to good school districts. Cold Spring Harbor High School is one of the best high schools in the country, out of both public and private categories.

>Yeah, we've all seen how the Interstate system is a great success.
> [wait for it, here somes someone saying it connects America] It
>connects me to the other side of the city, too.

No doubt, but that's not what it's for. You may (mis)use it that way, but the traffic you and people like you cause is not the fault of the system. It still does an excellent job at what it was designed for - interstate trade (and providing a means to move the military around quickly.)

[Kennedy 0]

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Police and fire departments funded and administered by the municipal or state governments are by definition socialist. Federal governments do not need to be involved for something to be social.

I may be wrong... but by definition (ie. out of a dictionary), socialism is any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration. No reference to federal government.

In the spirit of curiosity (not trying to take the thread in a new direction)... What is this general feeling of fear I seem to find surrounding the word socialism? Is it the definition, the historical references, the underlying ideology???? Any insight would be nice. Maybe I am just imagining things.

Your definition is correct, if simple. Collective efforts are what constitutes a community in my mind. The problem with socialism on a grand scale is that there is no community. Bureaucracy and layers prevent effective application. Also, personal choice must suffer to enforce equal distribution.

I am against collective ownership. There is a line we must each draw. That is the line where we find giving up liberty for security is acceptable. My line is drawn and firm. Others draw theirs near mine or far from mine in each direction.

The "fear" surrounding socialism is a hydra. It was the system of America's enemy in the cold war, the Soviets. It is a system that fails miserably when applied in the past here at home. It goes against the picture Americans hold for their culture.

Look at American mythic figures. Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, George Washington, Nathan Hale, John Paul Jones. These men did not need paper pushers and change jinglers to accomplish their tasks. They held responsibility and acted and encouraged men around them.

There's more, but I'm not going to write a dissertation on the subject. It's been done.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[PhillyKev 0]

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Look at American mythic figures. Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket, George Washington, Nathan Hale, John Paul Jones. These men did not need paper pushers and change jinglers to accomplish their tasks. They held responsibility and acted and encouraged men around them.

True...you can point out people who have shined due to capitalism. But what about the unnamed millions who have lived and died in poverty due to the same system? Not all of them were lazy. Some were born dumb, or the wrong race at the wrong time, or with physical defects, or had their spirits destroyed by abusive parents.

Personally, I don't think socialism is the right way. But many social services are necessary to ensure basic needs are met for those in our society that cannot provide them for themselves.

[Kennedy 0]

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I went through both public and private educational systems; my parents taught in public schools most of their lives. Public schools vary widely, which is why people often move to good school districts. Cold Spring Harbor High School is one of the best high schools in the country, out of both public and private categories.

You are correct. Of course there is variation. But the very fact that schools vary so widely is another sign that socialism does not work as planned here in the US. If it did, education would be equal regardless of district.

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No doubt, but that's not what it's for. You may (mis)use it that way, but the traffic you and people like you cause is not the fault of the system. It still does an excellent job at what it was designed for - interstate trade (and providing a means to move the military around quickly.)

I didn't think anyone remember the stated purpose for interstates (military movement). But honestly Bill, does the DC beltway help troop movements? No, it is a means of transportation of people by POV. I-80 fits the bill. I-495 does not. My dollars fund both. What really peeves me about the Interstate system is the gigantic expansion of eminent domain.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,116]

>Look at American mythic figures. Daniel Boone, Davy Crocket,
> George Washington, Nathan Hale, John Paul Jones. These men did
> not need paper pushers and change jinglers . . .

Look at other American heroes. Neil Armstrong, Chuck Yeager, Wilbur and Orville Wright, Martin Luther King, Robert Fulton, Albert Einstein. Most of them were heroes because they were supported by the rest of the people in the US - the government supported them, or they stood on the shoulders of other people who discovered and developed the technology they used. Landing on the moon was symbolized by one man (Neil Armstrong) but was possible because of "paperl pushers" and "change jinglers," the people who designed the Saturn 5 and the Apollo spacecraft (and who figured out how to pay for it.)

Very few people exist in a vacuum. The most successful of people are the people who can both lead and work with others to bring their dreams to fruition. Bill Gates would not be running Microsoft today if not for Paul Allen, the Lakeside Programmer's Group or the Altair 8800.

[Kennedy 0]

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I am aware of the political spectrum and all the various theories you mention here. Where my issue lies is at the heart of the rigidity of one's stance on that spectrum. To stand to the right is fine, I don't really care what side of the spectrum you would rather associate yourself. However, not accepting that a social approach to a problem may provide a very concrete solution is dangerous.

People come to different conclusions. Rigidity is not wrong in and of itself. I have come to the conclusion that a social approach will not work. That is a political decision. Don't think socialism is apart from the political spectrum. It falls squarely to the left.

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I am not trying to make an argument that socialism is better or worse. I just don't understand, or perhaps condone, the need to discredit a possible solution because of the political theory associated with it. It seems to border on negligence to me.

The solution is inseparable from the political theory.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 3,116]

>But honestly Bill, does the DC beltway help troop movements? No, it
>is a means of transportation of people by POV.

If the military had to use the beltway, it would be cleared within hours. Usually they don't need all that massive capacity.

> I-80 fits the bill. I-495 does not. My dollars fund both. What really
> peeves me about the Interstate system is the gigantic expansion of
> eminent domain.

Not many ways around that; private ownership of roads, while a good idea in theory, would have too much adverse impact on our economy to be seriously considered (at least in the car and truck centric society we have today.)

[Push 0]

I went through public education in three different countries. I am going through a university that is partially publically funded (as are most other schools in Canada). I have seriously considered MIT as an alternative to Waterloo when I was applying, and yes, according to their admissions department, I had a reasonable chance. Do you know why I chose Waterloo? Because MIT would have cost me upwards of $45,000 US a year. Unless one acquires some pretty hefty scholarships, this is prohibitive. It was for me.

Now, you probably haven't heard of the University of Waterloo, but we are consistently in competition for MIT and the Ivy League in all of the major contests. The undergraduate programs in the faculty of mathematics at Waterloo are very respected the world over. It doesn't have the bombast of a name like Harvard or MIT, but it is not significantly inferior to them by any measure in the mathematical sciences, except maybe the look-and-feel of the campus. I pay $3,500 CAD a semester.

Also, it is a fact that schools like Moscow State University (known to the Russians as MGU) and the Kolmogorov School of Mathematics competed with the best of the American schools during the Cold War. Your argument for privatization of the education system because "socialist" approaches do not work is unconvincing. The reason why American middle schools are below average has nothing to do with socialism.

I will not venture to give any examples of schools for studies of other fields, since my focus has always been math and CS.

On a different note, I grew up in communist Russia. I remember standing in line for 3 hours for bread and laundry detergent, something that would hopefully be alien to most people on this board. My mother was born in an barrack, not a hospital. I find your use of the word "socialist" disturbing. All too often people use "socialist" when they mean "communist". Government controlled education, or even high taxes, are NOT communism. Government controlled distribution of bread is getting there. Thus, socialism =/= evil.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Muenkel 0]

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Cold Spring Harbor High School is one of the best high schools in the country, out of both public and private categories.

Somewhat true. Cold Spring Harbor H.S. is one of many fantastic public high schools on Long Island. Long Island has always had a reputation for having the one of the best public school systems in the nation. This is why, public school was often the choice of the very rich. Of course, when you pay $15,000 per year in real estate taxes you should get a good school.

But then again, what do I know. I went to private school.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[billvon 3,116]

>On a different note, I grew up in communist Russia . . .

I think it's really cool that we get such a wide representation of people on this board. It's one thing to go on and on about "the commies," another to hear from someone who lived there and can describe what it was really like.

[tbrown 26]

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I have to agree with this as painful as it is. I would personally like to see Padilla fry. But this is the US and if we dont protect our citizens, even the worst, than what is the point. I am disappointed that this has become a political issue. I think we agree that Padilla is guilty of something. Does anyone know if he was caught with actual destructive materials or just plans? Is it legal to have plans for explosives? I am just curious.

Jose Padilla may very well be guilty of all the things he's been accused of. He may very well deserve to fry. But the way to do it is to accuse him of a crime and try him in open court, before a jury, where he can offer a vigorous defense.

Why ? Because even if he is the criminal they say he is, he's still an American citizen. It's his right, no it's ALL OF OUR RIGHT to a fair trial, based on the evidence. This right goes back even before the Constitution. the right of Habeas Corpus (present the body - as in court) goes all the way back to the Magna Carta of 1215.

The thing that always scared me about Bush even before he was "elected", was the way he was so sure about the 150 people he had executed in Texas. "They were all guilty." 150 people, in Texas, all of them ? Nope, couldn't be. He for sure killed several innocent people, but it doesn't bother him a bit. Now he's trying to discard rights and freedoms that go back to the days of Robin Hood.

Time to call out the Merry Men...

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Amazon 7]

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Time to call out the Merry Men...

Ok... so how do you guys look in green tights

[SkydiverRick 0]

I'm sure you also approved spending $50M of taxpayers money on the Whitewater investigation, run by a Republican, which also went nowhere.

[SkydiverRick 0]

It's not like it was wasted on giving medicine to poor people or anything.

[sducoach 0]

Not true.

Failing to convict is one thing, not guilty is another.

Man of integrity?

Think not.

James 4:8

[Kennedy 0]

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No one should be forced to pray to anything or anyone in a public school. (Public school is not a house of worship.) That's what it means. It 's pretty simple. You want prayer in school? Go to a private school. Pay for it with your dollars, not mine. And what do I do? I vote.

I don't want mandatory prayer in schools. But I don't want to be threatened with expulsion when I mention praying with friends during a study hall.

I'd have loved to attend a private school. And if I didn't already have to pay for public, I would have.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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Prayer is not prohibited in public schools. Any group of students can get together and say prayers if they are so inclined.

Good luck convincing administrators across the country of that little fact. A friend was suspended and threatened with expulsion because he would not stop discussing the bible in study hall with another student who was interested in learning and was asking questions.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

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The thing that always scared me about Bush even before he was "elected", was the way he was so sure about the 150 people he had executed in Texas. "They were all guilty." 150 people, in Texas, all of them ? Nope, couldn't be. He for sure killed several innocent people, but it doesn't bother him a bit. Now he's trying to discard rights and freedoms that go back to the days of Robin Hood.

Actually, Robin Hood was fighting against government, so I doubt Bush wants that.

To your ridiculous and mundane "they were innocent," I offer a ridiculous and mundane answer:

Proove that one of them was innocent.

I am so tired of that conversation. Look at Mumia. The man is guilty as sin. Even more obvious than OJ, and still "oh, he's innocent, how horrible..."

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[kallend 2,148]

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Proove that one of them was innocent.

I am so tired of that conversation. Look at Mumia. The man is guilty as sin. Even more obvious than OJ, and still "oh, he's innocent, how horrible..."

Unfortunately our system of justice requires proof of guilt, not of innocence. The Texas legal system has very well documented flaws that cast significant doubt on the validity of the verdict in many of these cases. The process in Texas is, in fact, more prone to error than Illinois, but at least Illinois took the trouble to investigate its own system and do something about it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[Muenkel 0]

What I can't figure out is why these anti-prayer, anti-religious symbols people are such wimps. I can honestly say that I have never walked past a menorrah on a town square and become offended. Nor does it upset me in the slightest when I see someone wearing a Yamika (sp?).

My point is, are these folks who are not Christian or Jewish such pussies, that if they see these symbols they have to increase their prozac? Are there psychiatrist bills going up? The irony is the protesters of the religious symbols are usually the ones who want everyone to celebrate diversity.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[AndyMan 7]

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A friend was suspended and threatened with expulsion because he would not stop discussing the bible in study hall with another student who was interested in learning and was asking questions.

And in another state, a student was actually expelled for saying the word "gay". At the time, the student was accurately describing the sexuality of his lesbian mother.

What one school administator thinks the rules are, and what the rules actually say are two entirely different things.

I do not know of any school with a policy like your friends'.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[turtlespeed 226]

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Unfortunately our system of justice requires proof of guilt, not of innocence.

???
Care to extrapolate on that one?

As for thier conviction, the burden of proof has already been met; therefore, someone would have to prove them innocent.

That is what an appeal is for. The convicted disagrees with what 12 of thier piers decided was the right punishment. At this point it is up to him and his lawyer to convince a person or persons in the position to do something about it that they don't deserve to die.

Despite what they say, Kallend, not EVERYBODY in jail is innocent. For a death warrant to be handed out, there had to be a heinous crime committed.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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[kallend 2,148]

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Unfortunately our system of justice requires proof of guilt, not of innocence.

???
Care to extrapolate on that one?

As for thier conviction, the burden of proof has already been met; therefore, someone would have to prove them innocent.

That is what an appeal is for. The convicted disagrees with what 12 of thier piers decided was the right punishment. At this point it is up to him and his lawyer to convince a person or persons in the position to do something about it that they don't deserve to die.

Despite what they say, Kallend, not EVERYBODY in jail is innocent. For a death warrant to be handed out, there had to be a heinous crime committed.

In most jurisdictions the appeal is based on points of law and process, not of points of fact. As the Supreme Court has previously ruled, actual innocence is not grounds for granting an appeal.

Are you actually aware of the problems that surfaced in Illinois when the workings of the system were finally investigated? More thoroughly than any other state which has a death penalty (most of which have the attitude that you kill 'em all and God will sort them out).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[kmcguffee 0]

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Good news for people who believe that essential freedoms are more important than temporary safety (to steal a phrase from Ben Franklin.)

Some other good quotes by Ben:

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Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.

Search others for their virtues, thyself for thy vices.

Imitate Jesus and Socrates

He was so learned that he could name a horse in nine languages; so ignorant that he bought a cow to ride on.

Many have quarreled about religion that never practiced it

Sin is not harmful because it is forbidden, but it is forbidden because it is hurtful.

The longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of man; and if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid?

They that are on their guard and appear ready to receive their adversaries, are in much less danger of being attacked than the supine, secure and negligent.

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin