In Flight Emergency Training

[GreenLight 8]

Would someone with accurate knowlege please list the procedures (for both pilots and jumpers) for an In Flight Emergency? It seems that there is quite a lack of knowlege and/or training on the subject and it is time someone took care of this ongoing problem.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[brettski74 0]

As far as pilots go, I somehow think that's beyond the scope of this forum, no? I'm hoping that this was part of their private and/or commercial pilot training.

As far as jumpers go, are you not taught on your first jump course? I know I was. The following information is paraphrased from the Canadian Parachutist Information Manual in the interests of brevity. I'm sure that there is more detailed information in most national organization's training material.

For an inflight emergency there are only two options, but don't take any action in an emergency until directed by the pilot. He/she is in command.

Option 1 is to stay in the plane and prepare for an emergency landing, which means fasten seatbelt and adopt a brace position to protect your head and neck.

Option 2 is an emergency exit. If the pilot says something like "This is an emergency. Exit!", then take note of your altitude, exit as quickly as possible and as soon as you're clear of the aircraft, deploy your canopy. Altitude will dictate whether you go for your main or reserve.

In either case, however, the golden rule is still shut up, sit tight and wait for pilot instruction.

This is pretty much what's in the PIM and was something we went through during the first jump course and before every jump while I was on student status and reviewed again as part of each licence progression (at least for A, B and C).

I'd also note that I've been told more than once that in a real emergency situation where exiting the plane may be helpful, getting out of the plane may be difficult or impossible due to the forces involved. Not that that changes the basic rules, but just something to be aware of.

[jimmytavino 16]

"lack of knowledge??? or training???"

not if you've attended a Safety Day in the last few years...

certainly this subject IS covered...

Pilot is in charge... and he or She may very well have their hands full...depending on aircraft, situation, altitude, etc...
Just like all E. P.s it can't hurt to plan, practice, and then even 'dirt dive' a variety of scenarios...and the Pilots who fly the jumpships, SHOULD take part in the practice...
it always helps for everyone to be on the same page...

good maintenance, and heads-up pilots, who don't waver from common sense flying procedures, should keep such emergencies from occuring...
However,
Once an exit command is given during an emergency,,, i would tend to think, in terms of , "we're all a team, here,, and we'll ALL safely exit..."
Composure is the order of business and lower experienced students, or even some well seasoned fun jumpers, may need help or encouragement , even assistance,,, to get to the door...

I M H O a JM or instructor or a senior jumper on the load, should see to the safe exit of everyone,,, following promptly...
it shouldn't be an "every man for himself" situation....that can get chaotic....
if the pilot has deemed that he or she is better off without the weight of the jumpers, then all need to work together...in a fast, and positive manner...

we can empty most planes in between 1 and 4 seconds, when at altitude.
we should be able to do the same, in an orderly way,,, during an emergency, ( give or take aerodynamic considerations )
communicating the exit altitude between the jumpers , may be helpful , as well...

good subject...
it comes around evey year about this time...( safety day)

jmy

[diablopilot 2]

I addition to the above guidelines, think about talking with your pilot. Chances are if he/she's been flying jumpers for a while they have thought about these things and prepared for them, if they haven't been in the game long and have no skydiving experience, they probably want to talk with jumpers about things.

I will always emphasize that the pilot is in command. Work with him/her.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...we can empty most planes in between 1 and 4 seconds, when at altitude.

What I rarely ever see discussed is what happens after you get out.

Picture this:
Emergency exit with a full load from altitude.
Exit separation = little to none.
Training says count 1 second and deploy main.
How many do you think will actually deploy at high altitude? How many are going to buzz it down halfway and pull with no track? How many are going to delay the pull and track in the same direction? Etc., etc....

Now what? You've got a plane load of people all in the sky at close proximity or on top of one another.

I don't think it would be so much of a major problem bailing out at low altitude because "most" would deploy immediately if really low.

What about the gray area between "high" and "low"? Your version of "low" is going to be different than others, for sure.

Why has not the USPA formulated more detailed info into the SIM about this than what little is already there?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jimmytavino 16]

good point(s)


one of the reasons i mentioned that communicating the current altitude is helpful.

I would say, that i would NOT wanna pull... right out the door..IF there is lots of altitude. but i sure wouldn't be hummin' it down to 2 grand, either....might rather pull a bit above 3.. to deal with contingencies...After looking, and waving.

also a good reason to have IN Depth discussions at the DZ on a regular basis...
not just on safety Day...

maybe even post the guidelines in a few places...

Off field landings are likely to be a part of such an exit, unless the situation allows the pilot to make a pass, somewhere near the intended spot.....
and so people need to be aware of wind direction, and familiarity with the area, sure helps, as well, in order to have safe landings
for everyone...
stick together, consider it an emergency until everyone is SAFELY on the ground,,, and Hope that someone might be carrying a phone. to alert manifest as to everyones location and safety...

a little pre emergency preparation will go a long way to turning such an event, into a
good bonfire story, instead of an accident report...

j t

[grimmie 186]

One of the key points I explain to people about an emergency exit is...

Are you over a hill or mountain on the climb to altitude? An alti showing 4,000ft may have you really at 2,000ft of usable altitude. Watch the climb out runs at your own DZ and when you go to boogies or visit other DZ's. At places like Perris there are small hills around, at Lost Prairie and other DZ's there are some major elevation changes on the climb to jump run.

[relyon 0]

Quote

What I rarely ever see discussed is what happens after you get out.

Picture this:
Emergency exit with a full load from altitude.
Exit separation = little to none.
Training says count 1 second and deploy main.
How many do you think will actually deploy at high altitude? How many are going to buzz it down halfway and pull with no track? How many are going to delay the pull and track in the same direction? Etc., etc....

Now what? You've got a plane load of people all in the sky at close proximity or on top of one another.

Sounds like a CRW load.

All jokes aside, this is an excellent discussion topic for Safety Day. On the very first Safety Day, Kapowsin pilot Dave Kaiser feathered the left engine on the Otter to simulate an engine out, followed immediately by a bailout order and everyone on the load (except him, of course) performed an orderly exit. Even though everyone knew it was coming, I don't beleive it would have been radically different in an actual emergency.

There was an actual high altitude bailout from an Otter at the WFFC a few years back. Perhaps billvon could speak about that one; IIRC he was on the load.

Bob

[JohnDeere 0]

We had a Carvan Engine out at 8000 Ft ( it felt like a car slamming on the brakes ). Pilot tried to restart engine, but it would not. He said he was going back over DZ and we were to exit single file with no set up in door. As i exited i back tracked and noticed everone tracking away from other jumpers. There was no panicing involved at all. As engine died everone started gearing up and quit to listen to pilots comand. I was very proud of our pilot and felow jumpers that day. Pilot landed on runway with no incodents. By the way i dont like the look of a propeller sitting still at 8 grand

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[diverdriver 7]

Quote

We had a Carvan Engine out at 8000 Ft ( it felt like a car slamming on the brakes ). Pilot tried to restart engine, but it would not. He said he was going back over DZ and we were to exit single file with no set up in door. As i exited i back tracked and noticed everone tracking away from other jumpers. There was no panicing involved at all. As engine died everone started gearing up and quit to listen to pilots comand. I was very proud of our pilot and felow jumpers that day. Pilot landed on runway with no incodents. By the way i dont like the look of a propeller sitting still at 8 grand

It was sitting still and not slowly rotating in feather? Ewwwwww.... that ain't good. Turbines usually free-wheel a little unless something has seazed up in there.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[moto89 0]

A windmilling prop creates more drag than a stopped one. Perhaps the pilot had the prop at full pitch to achieve this?

Less talking, more flying.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...I would say, that i would NOT wanna pull... right out the door..IF there is lots of altitude. but i sure wouldn't be hummin' it down to 2 grand, either....might rather pull a bit above 3.. to deal with contingencies...After looking, and waving.

When there's a Jumpmaster on-board it's easy enough for him/her to make the call - Bail on Reserve, Bail on Main, Normal/Routine Bailout.

Hopefully, everyone would follow the Jumpmaster's instruction.

When there's nobody taking charge, I fear the every-man-for-himself clusterfuck that's going to happen. If you pull at four, wave to the bozo above you as he goes through your canopy.

Not hammerin' you JT...just talking in general.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DougH 270]

I am pulling right out the door. The only situation where I would do otherwise is if were were at altitude and all groups were able to proceed with their normal planned exits, and normal exit seperation.

I don't see any negatives about pulling right out the door.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[JohnDeere 0]

Quote

Quote

We had a Carvan Engine out at 8000 Ft ( it felt like a car slamming on the brakes ). Pilot tried to restart engine, but it would not. He said he was going back over DZ and we were to exit single file with no set up in door. As i exited i back tracked and noticed everone tracking away from other jumpers. There was no panicing involved at all. As engine died everone started gearing up and quit to listen to pilots comand. I was very proud of our pilot and felow jumpers that day. Pilot landed on runway with no incodents. By the way i dont like the look of a propeller sitting still at 8 grand

It was sitting still and not slowly rotating in feather? Ewwwwww.... that ain't good. Turbines usually free-wheel a little unless something has seazed up in there.

Dont know why it wasn't moving, but the pilot kept it at a very slow decent. Congrats to our pilot.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

I am pulling right out the door. The only situation where I would do otherwise is if were were at altitude and all groups were able to proceed with their normal planned exits, and normal exit seperation.

I don't see any negatives about pulling right out the door.

I'm with you on this one. Advantages:
-Avoid the pileup
-Maximize time to pick and plan an out

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[ROK 0]

in any emergency situation the less decisions there are to make, the better the outcome will be.

I'm usually in the front of the plane with a wingsuit on (behind twenty jumpers)and if the pilot gives the order to exit I only want to worry about one thing, my altitude. If we're low, I'm hitting my reserve out the door, if were high enough, I'm tossing my pilot chute as soon as I safely exit.

Even if I'm at full altitude I want to have time to take in my spot, and plan accordingly after I exit. Things I don't want to be calculating while waiting my turn to survive.

Besides the pilot, there's usually no one designated as being "in charge" on the load. Everyone marching to a predetermined plan is much better than trying to decide who's calling the shots.

When I don't fly my wingsuit, I'm usually near the door. I also don't want to worry about someone screaming through my canopy.

[GreenLight 8]

"As far as jumpers go, are you not taught on your first jump course? I know I was."

Of course I was. But the last few in flight emergencies that I have witnessed or heard about were nothing more than pure panic followed by screaming running jumpers getting out as fast as they could hit the door, and without the pilot commanding them to do so. Thus it seems to me that there is little or no training on the subject. Either that or everyone forgot...

I did not ask because I did not know. I asked because it is perfectly clear that there are people out there (many of them) who have no idea what to do during an in flight emergency. I am not a jump master so I wanted a reply from a KNOWN knowlegable person.

One thing I noticed during a possible in flight emergency years ago was that the pilot didn't know what to do. This was obviouse because he was screaming "NO.... Don't GO!".... everyone knows what that translates to in a noisy crowded airplane full of panicing jumpers. It sounds just like GO! That is the reason for the term EXIT EXIT EXIT.... If you don't hear that you are supposed to stay in your seat and shut up.

I have video of a very successful emergency exit by about 25 jumpers out of a DC3 back in the early 80s. Everything was fine and no one was hurt. Everyone did a hop and pop. We were at 2500 feet so no one used a reserve.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 8]

""lack of knowledge??? or training???"

not if you've attended a Safety Day in the last few years...

certainly this subject IS covered... "

Well it should be... Doesn't mean it is or that anyone is listening. And it doesn't mean that everyone who jumps attended. And I realise that not everyone reads this forum either. I think it's up to the safety minded people to try to get the word out before the next in flight emergency happens because it could mean the difference between a good outcome and a bad one.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[GreenLight 8]

"I am pulling right out the door."

You mean as soon as you clear the aircraft. Pulling right out the door of say a king air could wrap you up in the tail. I have video of that also.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[jimmytavino 16]

Quote

""lack of knowledge??? or training???"

not if you've attended a Safety Day in the last few years...

certainly this subject IS covered... "

Well it should be... Doesn't mean it is or that anyone is listening. And it doesn't mean that everyone who jumps attended. And I realise that not everyone reads this forum either. I think it's up to the safety minded people to try to get the word out before the next in flight emergency happens because it could mean the difference between a good outcome and a bad one.

Amen to that...

that's why a later post of mine, in this thread, mentions Printing and POSTING of said procedures.....
so that anyone on the premises would be able to avail themselves of the "knowledge and game plan"...EVEN if they already "know SO much that they need not attend a safety day seminar"

since such attendance is only "recommended" and not mandatory...lots of folks think it's just for novices...
Though many an old timer has contributed an important point or two,,,, during the course of the seminars which are held on that day...
jt

good thread.

[DougH 270]

Quote

"I am pulling right out the door."

You mean as soon as you clear the aircraft. Pulling right out the door of say a king air could wrap you up in the tail. I have video of that also.

Yes obviously. Normally you want to get away from aircraft, not wrap your main around it.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P