Mr. Chicken

[happythoughts 0]

I keep seeing new years resolutions about "staying safe" and "being a better jumper".

Yesterday, I was on a load. My 6-way was comprised of guys that I regularly jump with. DZ locals. Average jumps over 1000. Most with over 6 years at the dz. People I trust.

We were the first group out. It looked too thick for me. We opted to not go. The rest of the plane emptied. That is their choice. As one guy exited, he yelled back "Chicken". Yep, that would be me, Mr. Chicken. Being old and male, I can go by the Old Rooster now.

So, here is the question. If you know that the dz is down there. You can spot, but think it is too thick. Should you jump?

Me? Nope. Based on what I know, no. Are the "I'm going to safe posts" posts just lip service. Is "mostly safe" the same as actually safe? Not for me.

[jmpnkramer 0]

It has nothing to do with being chicken IMO.

The thing with most young jumpers is that a majority have not had a chance to see and expericence what we have.

Unfortunately from my standpoint I have had plenty happen to me.

When the cloudcover gets to be too thick and you cannot see it becomes very unsafe. Not only in freefall but under canopy as well.

Shit half the people are not even sure what to do if they are going to collide.

Once again it has nothing to do with being chicken but more experienced and the sense to know better.

I used to be one of those young clueless jumpers who would jump in any condition. These days I am wiser and would like to be around for awhile longer.
Laters,

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The REAL KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!

"HESITATION CAUSES DEATH!!!"
"Be Slow to Fall into Friendship; but when Thou Art in, Continue Firm & Constant." - SOCRATES

[Jimbo 0]

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So, here is the question. If you know that the dz is down there. You can spot, but think it is too thick. Should you jump?

I tend to stay on the ground when the clouds are that thick. I've made a few jumps through thick clouds, and to be honest, they scare me. They scare me more when I know I'll be flying my canopy through them. Call me chicken I guess.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[quade 4]

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So, here is the question. If you know that the dz is down there. You can spot, but think it is too thick. Should you jump?

There's at least two different issues: Legal and Safe.

Usually one implies the other, but there are exceptions.

Legal isn't always safe and safe isn't always legal.

I have two conditions that need to be met: I -know- where I am in relationship to the dz and I'm confidant that there will be a safe breakoff.

To -know- where you are in relationship to the dz, you -must- see some recognizable landmarks. That means there -must- be breaks in the clouds -- no solid undercast.

To be confidant in a breakoff, the breakoff -must- be below the lowest clouds. On the ride up, take a note of the bases. If conditions aren't changing rapidly, that's more than likely where they'll be when it's your turn. Anything below 4,000 gets me nervous.

I play the two factors against each other and make a decision I can live with. It is usually less expensive to make the decision before getting on the airplane.

Sometimes, ya just gotta ride the plane down.

Oh, one more note for camera flyers especially, if the bottom of the clouds to the top of the clouds is more than about 4,000 thick and for some reason you end up in it, you'll almost certainly be jumping -through- rain. It can sting like crazy, disorient you, make you lose focus and take your camera out of commission.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[happythoughts 0]

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Not only in freefall but under canopy as well.

This is where I was going. You stated it exactly. There are a number of dangers. I don't think that people understand all of them. Did the other groups consider...

Tracking collisions. You are tracking through a crowd and discover that the group behind you didn't allow enough separation. You are in a full track and collide with each other.

Canopy/freefall collision. Someone opens. Being a good tracker, the jumper tracks through the canopy of another jumper.

Airplanes. Some pilots don't (1) know what the little parachutes mean on the chart (2) or know where they are. You could hit an airplane in freefall.

Poor tracking skills. Someone in your group cannot track in a straignt line and dumps beneath you.

It isn't necesarily someone in your group, someone from another group could hit you.

[mfrese 0]

Having opted to ride the plane down more than a few times, and in the same situation, I'd have to say it depends. If it's at a DZ I know well, with a pilot I trust, where I know there are a lot of outs and I know EXACTLY what altitude the bases are at and I'm comfortable with it, then probably. Change even one of those variables, almost certainly no.

It takes a few out landings in less than optimal conditions to make you realize that there will probably still be airplanes, fuel, and a DZ tomorrow, thus no need to put yourself in jeopardy today.

Doctor I ain't gonna die,
Just write me an alibi! ---- Lemmy/Slash

[happythoughts 0]

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To -know- where you are in relationship to the dz, you -must- see some recognizable landmarks.

We jump there all the time. We used other landmarks to triangulate. We absolutely knew where the dz was.

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To be confidant in a breakoff, the breakoff -must- be below the lowest clouds.

Breakoff from who? My group? No problem, total trust. The group behind me who may, or may not, give us exit separation? Hmmm...

I was doing visual checks of everyone at 10K. Cheststrap routing, cutaway pillows, bridles, hackeys. I noticed a group that was not giving their buddies gear checks. Not even lower pin.

Here is the worst part - they weren't checking themselves either. Do I trust their judgement? I'd like to say "Hell no" in the nicest way possible.

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On the ride up, take a note of the bases.

I do the same thing. We actually discussed that among our group on the ride up. Base was 4K and loose on the way up. It was the view from the top that sucked. It moved in. Clear everywhere but where we were.

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make a decision I can live with.

Good post. I want more experienced people to post their criteria and reasons. That is the point of this thread. Thanks.

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[happythoughts 0]

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you realize that there will probably still be airplanes, fuel, and a DZ tomorrow, thus no need to put yourself in jeopardy today.

kind of safe.

[ChileRelleno 0]

I remember as student just on solo status going up with two of the jumpmasters for a fun jump, we had a thick marine layer, we knew the cloudbase, we had GPS and we circled a couple of times with all three of us taking turns trying to get a spot, no joy was called(we did not jump). We were right on the edge of a lake and the proper call was made, I will always remember Jeff saying "well... I know its there but its just too thick."
I was watching a JM,Tandem and AFF I/E with thousands of jumps teach by example.
Thank you, Jeff, thanks Ralph.

ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414
Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868