Was Bush the First a War Hero?

[Lizard 0]

January 04, 2004
Was Bush the First a War Hero?
Posted by Lew Rockwell at January 4, 2004 01:18 PM

From Richard Russell's investment letter (courtesy of Anne Williamson): "I get all kinds of e-mails, many of them quite enlightening. The one below was amazing. I'm always fascinated to hear the real story about politicians. The e-mail has the ring of truth about it. Do you agree?"

George Bush Sr Is No WWII Hero
By John S. McDonald (1-1-04)

I am an 82 year old Navy pilot and I am outraged at television's depiction of George Bush Sr.'s Pacific experiences. Now, I hear a book is forthcoming - Unbelievable!! I was in the Pacific at the same time as Bush and flew the same Avenger airplane. A small room in the rear of the Avenger was occupied by the radioman. The gunner went through the room to get up to his turret. Both wore a harness to which a chest type parachute could be attached - The gunner had to come down out of the turret to put on his chute.

Bush said he was hit by anti-aircraft fire and the plane caught fire. Bush's squadron was primarily used for patrol and saw very little combat. Bush claimed he warned the crew, over the intercom, to get out - got no answer and he could not yell back because of the armor plate behind him. He decided they were dead, so he bailed out. First, he failed to say he switched his mike from radio to intercom. Then being blocked by the armor is a bold faced lie! There was a sizable gap on either side of the armor. I used this space to call to my crew several times.

The tough old Avenger simply did not catch fire!! It had self sealing gas tanks. In six months of operations, I never saw an Avenger catch fire. If the oil or hydraulic systems were damaged, great clouds of white smoke would stream out of the plane. I have no idea how many times I saw planes returning to their carriers trailing smoke but never a fire. What really happened? It was the pilots job to hold the plane level and slow it down so the crew could get out. Most certainly, the radioman was helping the gunner with his chute when Bush panicked and left the plane. Then the plane rolled into a dive giving the crew no chance.

This story went through the fleet and all the Avenger pilots i knew were shocked at what they heard. I heard speculation of a Courts-Martial. Bush was very young. By his own admission, he reacted under stress. It is terrifying to have the cockpit fill with smoke. Possibly, he can be excused for reacting to fear and accepting it as another war time tragedy - but he has been glorified on the History channel, a book is being published, and worst of all, an aircraft carrier is to be named for him. This is unbelievable!! Bush performed badly and was certainly no hero.

[quade 4]

Generally speaking, even the most hard core anti-Bush(43) folks admit that Bush(41) was, in fact, a sharp guy that was, by most accounts the real deal when it comes to his service record.

If you don't want to call a guy that flys into war a hero, ok, your choice, but he was a hell of a lot braver than a lot of folks today.

Now, if you want to talk about the ironic naming of things . . . try Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport!

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[vonSanta 0]

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Bush claimed he warned the crew, over the intercom, to get out - got no answer and he could not yell back because of the armor plate behind him. He decided they were dead, so he bailed out. First, he failed to say he switched his mike from radio to intercom. Then being blocked by the armor is a bold faced lie! There was a sizable gap on either side of the armor. I used this space to call to my crew several times.

Dunno about the intent of the post and won't comment on it. I'll just say there seems to be a hole in the armor on some model TBMs - or possibly it was done later at the museum? Seen from
pilot's seat it's visible.

Also from wireless operator's seat

Finally, the gap to the side can be seen in both pics, and this photo shows it quite clearly.

Other than that, while self sealing tanks helped reduce the risk of fire, it didn't eliminate it. 20mm HE rounds could blow quite large holes. There are pictures of burning Avengers out there.

This link claims one of the other crewmen bailed, but that his parachute didn't deploy.

I dunno. The guy obviously served. He probably didn't screw up too much. He got a medal along the way.

He's no more of a hero than any other Avenger pilot though, I'll agree with that. Basically came in a wee late for the really hard missions.

But he was there. He flew and took risks. It may not be "heroic" in times of war, when all must take risks, but it's at least a *bit* ballsy. I know it'd scare me.

Santa Von GrossenArsch
I only come in one flavour
ohwaitthatcanbemisunderst

[SkydivingNurse 0]

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Now, if you want to talk about the ironic naming of things . . . try Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport!

I don't get it. Was he afraid to fly or something? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really don't understand why it would be ironic.

[MC208B 0]

What is the purpose of this message? Digging up some trash on Bush Sr.?!? Not happy bashing the current President Bush

Hmmmm......can you find any dirt on his brother Jeb?

[Guest]

He was a carrier pilot. That alone speaks volumes.

Sounds like somebody's bitter at not getting the attention that Bush 41 had.

There's a metalsmith who lives not far from me. If I hadn't seen a photo of a Lancaster in his shop, I would never have known he was a flight engineer on the bomber when it was shot down over Holland and its surviving crew captured by the Germans.

The crews of the Lanc and the Heinkel met a few years back at the crash site. Together, they dug out some small pieces of the wreckage.

They were willing to put it behind them after 50 years.

This guy obviously can't.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

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I don't get it. Was he afraid to fly or something? Seriously, I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really don't understand why it would be ironic.

CNN Story

Quote

In August 1981, Ronald Reagan took an uncompromising stand against striking air-traffic controllers who threatened to shut down the nation's airlines. The striking workers complained of growing demands and dangerous levels of stress on the job. Their issues centered on wages, retirement benefits and hours.

The president announced the striking workers were in violation of the law, and he fired them, with little apparent remorse. Organized labor was furious while the public had a more mixed reaction. Even those within his own administration had their doubts about the move.

Slightly more in-depth story:

Buy and Hold

A -huge- blow to all labor unions in the U.S.

So, anyway, naming an airport after him essentially tells workers in this country . . . go F yourselves.

My understanding is that some airline pilots refuse to use the "official" name of the airport in talking with air traffic control. Using "National" instead.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[SkydivingNurse 0]

Oh man, How could I have forgotten about that?
Thanks for the reminder, Quade.
Not being a fan of organized labor (I'm in a union, much to my chagrin ) I can't say that I completely sympathize with the ATC's, but now I can definitely see the irony in it. Thanks again!

[Guest]

That's a pretty accurate picture of the situation.

It was quickly followed by the Gulf of Sidra "Line of Death" incident in which two Libyan SU-22s were shot down by F-14s.

This kind of bold, decisive action was sorely needed after four years of hand-wringing naivete by Carter. I still get angry when I think about Carter's so-called "leadership" (if you want an idea of what kind of people were in the Cabinet at the time, read COL Charles Beckwith's "Delta Force").

And it was Klinton who overturned the ATC ban on former PATCO members. Wonder what he would have done if they'd gone one strike when he was in office.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

Like almost everything, labor unions have their good and bad points.

All in all, early labor unions were a -very- good idea and gave us a lot of things we now take for granted.

I've been on both sides of the collective bargining table and I've worked in both union and non-union positions. All in all, I was more prosperous and safer from the whims of management when I was in a union position.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Guest]

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Like almost everything, labor unions have there good and bad points.

All in all, early labor unions were a -very- good idea and gave us a lot of things we now take for granted.

I've been on both sides of the collective bargining table and I've worked in both union and non-union positions. All in all, I was more prosperous and safer from the whims of management when I was in a union position.

Unions never helped me, especially when I needed them, and they spent my dues on political causes I was vehemently opposed to.

How about being told by a shop steward - "No, you can't fix those heat guns, I don't caare if you're an electronics technician. Only an electrician can do that." There was no electrician assigned to the shop, and they couldn't get one. Silly me, I fixed the heat guns anyway, knowing that they wouldn't do anything about it.

Then there's the sleazy, slimy relationship organized labor has had with its ugly sister, organized crime...

There is an interesting group here in Washington called Washington Technical Alliance that is watchdogging the offshoring of IT jobs, and is trying to get IT types organized, but I honestly don't think it's going to do much good.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Unstable 9]

This sounds like over analyzing a simplified story of a complicated event - It doesn't work.

I believe the man was a war hero - he was willing to get in the airplane and due his duty for our Country. What else do you want??? At least he served, and didn't run off to Canada......

=========Shaun ==========

[quade 4]

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Then there's the sleazy, slimy relationship organized labor has had with its ugly sister, organized crime...

(chuckle) . . . you're tellin' me?

Remember I work in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles. It was Frank Nitti that -personally- brought the IATSE to Hollywood. And uh, I've been a member of that.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Tonto 1]

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He was a carrier pilot. That alone speaks volumes.

I think everyone here knows I'm not much of a Bush fan.

I think being a carrier pilot in the 1940's was even more of a challenge than it is today.

Maybe he screwed up - maybe he didn't, but the only people I know who make no mistakes are those that do nothing.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Guest]

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Then there's the sleazy, slimy relationship organized labor has had with its ugly sister, organized crime...

(chuckle) . . . you're tellin' me?

Remember I work in the entertainment industry in Los Angeles. It was Frank Nitti that -personally- brought the IATSE to Hollywood. And uh, I've been a member of that.

And there's still fallout of the IATSE vote at SAG. "No means NO!" Twice!

Did you see the SAG front page after the vote? Coolest fireworks display I've ever seen...

BTW - I think the problem I was having contacting agents was because SAG got fed up with campaigners calling, and restricted the "talent finder" service to WORK ONLY (uh, gosh, does an INTERVIEW count as WORK?"). PM me and I'll tell you about my Don Davis interview...

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[quade 4]

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And there's still fallout of the IATSE vote at SAG. "No means NO!" Twice!

I think you're thinking of AFTRA (which I've -also- been a member of) and SAG.

In any case, like I said, both good and bad.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[Guest]

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And there's still fallout of the IATSE vote at SAG. "No means NO!" Twice!

I think you're thinking of AFTRA (which I've -also- been a member of) and SAG.

In any case, like I said, both good and bad.

Oops! - my bad!

Of course it was AFTRA - I'm getting punchy here - I've been up for 36 hours on account of the weather...

Hollywood unions can be vicious. Burt Ward was fined for moving a potted plant across a table on the Batman set!

I loved the end credits for "Top Secret" where they spoofed all the showbiz lingo names... I still smile when I think of that...

edit to add some of the "Top Secret" closing credits.

Worst Boy.....Adolph Hitler
Habe Roasher ........ Helen Roberts
The Third Man ....... Guido Reidy
Focus Loader.......Jack Williams
Focus Puller........Tony Strachan
Clapper Loader......John Fletcher
Clapper Puller......Tom Brown
Puller Clapper......Joe Taylor
Clapper Clapper ......Edward Davis
Flipper Flapper.....Jane Thomas
Hey Diddle Diddle.....The Cat And The Fiddle
Foreez....A Jolly Good Fellow


mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[kallend 2,131]

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Unions never helped me, especially when I needed them,

I doubt that. You're just not thinking of the benefits you have and take for granted that were won, often at cost of life and limb, by the labor unions in the 19th and early 20th Centuries.

Corporations are organized. Why shouldn't labor be organized too when negotiating with corporations?

Now, when it comes to restrictive labor practices, that is another matter entirely. As is using members' dues for political purposes.

Then again, corporations make political donations too, that may be quite contrary to the views of individual stockholders.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

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Then again, corporations make political donations too, that may be quite contrary to the views of individual stockholders.

True. However, as an investor, if I object to the corporation's political stance, I can take my funds elsewhere.

In many states, one cannot work in a trade unless one is a member of a union.

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Gravitymaster 0]

Now, when it comes to restrictive labor practices, that is another matter entirely. As is using members' dues for political purposes.

Then again, corporations make political donations too, that may be quite contrary to the views of individual stockholders.

[kallend 2,131]

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Then again, corporations make political donations too, that may be quite contrary to the views of individual stockholders.

True. However, as an investor, if I object to the corporation's political stance, I can take my funds elsewhere.



mh

Not necessarily. Many pension fund investments are out of the control of the individual, and pension funds are the largest single source of investment in the US. I have no clue in which corporations my pension is invested. I could find out but even so there's not anything I can do about it.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 2,131]

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Now, when it comes to restrictive labor practices, that is another matter entirely. As is using members' dues for political purposes.

Then again, corporations make political donations too, that may be quite contrary to the views of individual stockholders.

***

True. However I am not forced to own stock in a corporation that makes political contributions I dislike. Same cannot be said for Union members.

[rehmwa 2]

Hey - you have a pension? That's fortuneate, and a huge drain on many companies. For manufacturing companies, it could be the kiss of death if profit margins reduce and the retired force increases, etc...

Many of us have to save up on our own for retirement.

I'd love to have back the ~7% I've contributed to Social Security since I started working. -- to invest privately (even starting now, although if I'd have started investing since the mid 80's I'd already be retired very comfortably).

Heck, for that 7%, the government can even keep the matching amount my employer had to put in......

I'd still be better right now than I will be in 30 years if I had to rely on SS.

and some people still get pensions...

nothing personal, just pensions are a thing of the past and every single person I know who has one either doesn't appreciate it and/or is very liberal concerning their retirement funding

edit: yeah, this is disjointed except for the whole saving for retirement theme

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 2,131]

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Hey - you have a pension? That's fortuneate, and a huge drain on many companies. For manufacturing companies, it could be the kiss of death if profit margins reduce and the retired force increases, etc...

Many of us have to save up on our own for retirement.

I'd love to have back the ~7% I've contributed to Social Security since I started working. -- to invest privately (even starting now, although if I'd have started investing since the mid 80's I'd already be retired very comfortably).

Heck, for that 7%, the government can even keep the matching amount my employer had to put in......

I'd still be better right now than I will be in 30 years if I had to rely on SS.

and some people still get pensions...

nothing personal, just pensions are a thing of the past and every single person I know who has one either doesn't appreciate it and/or is very liberal concerning their retirement funding

edit: yeah, this is disjointed except for the whole saving for retirement theme

I pay into my pension plan, It comes out of my paycheck! I have no option. It is just part of the compensation package for the job.

Why is it lucky? I don't think it's any luckier than having a high salary and being responsible for your own retirement funding.

However, my good luck is beside the point:

The point is that practically everyone with a company sponsored pension plan in the USA (and that's millions of people) are forced to invest in corporations whose political contributions they may disagree with. In that sense, I see no difference between that and the political contributions of labor unions.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Guest]

Boy, this thread sure didn't take long to get all forky!

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."