US Government bans Ephedra

[lawrocket 3]

Yes, or, "We are on Orange Alert!!!! But act like nothing is wrong."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[kallend 2,117]

Quote

Quote

Yet another loss of personal freedoms courtesy of the Bush administration.

I'm not going to bother reading the posts below this yet.

Does anyone know what CrystalMethanphetamines are made from.
Lemme help.
Psuedoephedrine and Ephedrine.

That is the stuff that warps minds and kills.

Kallend, how many kids do you teach?
How many of those kids do you want to have access to this drug?
How much advocation are you giving to drug addiction and life ruin?
As a college proffessor, and a liberal, you seem to be very heartless.

How about reading what I wrote instead of putting words on my page for me.

The government should not be in the business of telling ADULTS what they can and cannot do with their own bodies as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else.


ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS

IS that clear enough for you?

PS ephedra is a plant extract.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 226]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Yet another loss of personal freedoms courtesy of the Bush administration.

I'm not going to bother reading the posts below this yet.

Does anyone know what CrystalMethanphetamines are made from.
Lemme help.
Psuedoephedrine and Ephedrine.

That is the stuff that warps minds and kills.

Kallend, how many kids do you teach?
How many of those kids do you want to have access to this drug?
How much advocation are you giving to drug addiction and life ruin?
As a college proffessor, and a liberal, you seem to be very heartless.

How about reading what I wrote instead of putting words on my page for me.

The government should not be in the business of telling ADULTS what they can and cannot do with their own bodies as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else.


ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS ADULTS

IS that clear enough for you?

PS ephedra is a plant extract.

OK....What is the legal age that one may be tried as an adult?
Adult adult adult?

Next try reading a little yourself.

Ephedra, also called Ma huang, is a naturally occurring substance derived from plants. Its principal active ingredient is ephedrine, which when chemically synthesized is regulated as a drug. In recent years ephedra products have been extensively promoted to aid weight loss, enhance sports performance, and increase energy.


This comes from the FDA

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Next try reading a little yourself.

Ephedra, also called Ma huang, is a naturally occurring substance derived from plants. Its principal active ingredient is ephedrine, which when chemically synthesized is regulated as a drug. In recent years ephedra products have been extensively promoted to aid weight loss, enhance sports performance, and increase energy.

Ok...now try reading a little of your own post.

When it is chemically synthesized, it is regulated. When it is found in Mua Huang, it is not regulated. And, cannot be used to manufacture methamphetamine. Ephedrine CANNOT be separated from Ephedra. Only synthesized ephedrine (aka pseudoephedrine, aka tylenol cold medicine) can be used to make meth.

[Push 0]

Alright, what is this argument about?

We have the anecdotal evidence of "it worked for me, so it's ok" on one side. On the other we have people who say that all drugs should be freely available. On the third we have people who don't care what the doctors say and are convinced it's all a conspiracy.

I thought we were all better than that.

Are any of you doctors? Or do you think doctors are not needed? Do you drive cars you assembled yourself? Do you jump rigs you've sown together yourself? Does anyone here have the qualifications to argue anything about this drug?

Why don't we all start an argument over whether the integral of e to the minus x squared is equal to the root of pi, it would have just about the same productivity.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Alright, what is this argument about?

Easy....government interference in personal decisions relating to ones own physical body.

[Push 0]

Government? Or doctors working through the government? I still stand by my statement that noone here is a doctor and is qualified to speak on the subject. Hearsay, anecdotal evidence, and amateur chemistry are really bad reasons to take banned substances.

However, I do agree that the ban is a knee jerk reaction and is pretty silly.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Government? Or doctors working through the government? I still stand by my statement that noone here is a doctor and is qualified to speak on the subject.

1. you don't think anyone here is a doctor?

2. do you think that doctors are the only ones that can read?

do you think that all doctors are experts on everything medical?
(if so..you're wrong)

there is nothing special or magical about doctors..except that they have studies one thing more than others.

I am a childbirth educator...certified doula...and apprentice midwife. I guarentee that I know more about pregnancy and childbirth than 80% of doctors out there save for perinatologists and obstetricians..

and believe it or not, I know more about normal childbirth than most obstetricians (and nearly all perinatologists).

Being a doctor doesn't make you a God. Makes you educated about that speciality about which you studied...
but anyone can read...research..educate themselves.

Quote

However, I do agree that the ban is a knee jerk reaction and is pretty silly.

I doubt it's a knee jerk reaction...
and I seriously doubt it's a medical reaction. I HIGHLY suspect it's a financial one. (get into the medical field like I have been for 10 years and you would probably feel the same way)

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Hearsay, anecdotal evidence, and amateur chemistry are really bad reasons to take banned substances.

Hereasy, anecdotal evidence, and amateur chemistry are really bad reasons to ban or criminalize something, as well.

[aneblett 0]

Quote

What any adult chooses to put in his or her body should be NO BUSINESS of the government.

So long as you are saying as well that Health Care should also be no business of the government then I am with you..

Age

S.E.X. party #2

..It is far worse to live with fear, than to die confronting it.

[Push 0]

I doubt that there isn't a single doctor on this board, but I haven't read any posts where someone states their qualifications and clarifies the results of scientific studies. Because of your qualifications, you know better than I do that a layman cannot really read a drug study and understand it. Yet here we are arguing over the decisions of people who are infinitely many times more qualified than we are. This sounds a lot like the proverbial jump wonders argument.

Doctors are not Gods, but the right doctor sure as hell knows more about Ephedra and all of it's effects and interactions than me. And I'm betting that there aren't any people involved in this argument that are such doctors.

If a rigger says my rig is unsafe I will not jump it. If a doctor says that Ephedra is unsafe I will not consume it. Same thing. Respecting experience is not the same thing as blindly following authority.

Quote

but anyone can read...research..educate themselves.

That's not true. If I give you a book on non-commutative ring algebra you will not be able to read it without years of prior education.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Push 0]

Ok, so you're putting the qualifications of the people who made this decision into doubt? Or are you putting the reasoning behind their decisions into doubt?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

If a rigger says my rig is unsafe I will not jump it. If a doctor says that Ephedra is unsafe I will not consume it. Same thing. Respecting experience is not the same thing as blindly following authority.

If a rigger says my rig is unsafe, I will ask him why he thinks that. If he tries to confiscate my rig and ban me from using it even if I don't agree with his opinion, I'd be pissed.

If a doctor tells me that eating too much red meat is unsafe, I will consider his opinion. If he tries to somehow elliminate my ability to eat red meat, I will be pissed.

If the government tells me that taking a substance to help improve my quality of life is dangerous, I will consider their opinion. If they try to legislate away my ability to make my own choice on the matter, I am pissed.

Once again, what happened to personal responsibility?

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Ok, so you're putting the qualifications of the people who made this decision into doubt? Or are you putting the reasoning behind their decisions into doubt?

I'm questioning by what authority they make this decision for me.

[jumprunner 0]

Quote

Quote

The people that have problems are the people with pre-exsisting health problems or the ones that take well above the recommended dosage...

I disagree completely because I have taken products with ephedra before.....I took under the recommended dose and I have no health problems (knock on wood).. It raised my blood pressure significantly and caused my heart to race ie 160 while resting. I was monitored in the er for several hours. Not very comfortable. Granted I am sensitive to caffiene but you never know how it's going to affect different people. I will never ever touch the stuff again... But that's just my experience, obviously many use it with no problems.

On this note, I found out my blood pressure went to 166/106 after only 1/2 cup of coffee, meaning Im super sensitive to caffeine, so now I have to avoid caffiene products altogether (so says the doc). Drank half a diet coke not long ago, shortly afterward my vision starts blurring among other things.

The thing to do is see how you react to a drug, everybody responds differently based on your metabolism.

[Push 0]

Quote

I'm questioning by what authority they make this decision for me.

So you do not want the government to be able to ban substances outright? This is a different argument from the one that is going on in this thread. In fact, I agree with you.

Quote

If a rigger says my rig is unsafe, I will ask him why he thinks that. If he tries to confiscate my rig and ban me from using it even if I don't agree with his opinion, I'd be pissed.

If a doctor tells me that eating too much red meat is unsafe, I will consider his opinion. If he tries to somehow elliminate my ability to eat red meat, I will be pissed.

If the government tells me that taking a substance to help improve my quality of life is dangerous, I will consider their opinion. If they try to legislate away my ability to make my own choice on the matter, I am pissed.

Once again, what happened to personal responsibility?

This is a good point. I have used a bad example with rigging. The reasons behind decisions in rigging can perhaps be explained in laymans terms with a small loss of precision and little introduction of confusion.

Still, it's almost impossible to do that in highly technical, general fields that have taken hundreds of years to develop. Even if a layman reads through a drug study, s/he will not have the requisite knowledge about the other drugs this study uses and will need to go through 4 years of reading to be able to truly understand what's going on. Unless the layman does this, there will be inaccuracies, misunderstandings and confusions that will cloud his/her decision and may lead to injury and death.

Personal responsibility is all nice and good, but consuming dangerous substances because the doctors did not give you an explanation you deem adequate is just stupid. In the exact same way that bying a Stiletto 120 at 50 jumps despite what everyone says is stupid.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

So you do not want the government to be able to ban substances outright? This is a different argument from the one that is going on in this thread. In fact, I agree with you.

Actually, this thread is about the government banning a previously legal substance.

Quote

Even if a layman reads through a drug study, s/he will not have the requisite knowledge about the other drugs this study uses and will need to go through 4 years of reading to be able to truly understand what's going on. Unless the layman does this, there will be inaccuracies, misunderstandings and confusions that will cloud his/her decision and may lead to injury and death.

I don't disagree with you, but I can easily find plenty of studies from experts showing the effectiveness of this particular substance. There hasn't been any conclusive, widely accepted proof of its danger when used properly.

[Push 0]

Quote

Actually, this thread is about the government banning a previously legal substance.

Correct, but almost no evidence has been presented that this is a bad decision. All evidence was anecdotal. And I still contend that no discussion over the general level of responsibility that the government must assume has taken place.

Quote

I don't disagree with you, but I can easily find plenty of studies from experts showing the effectiveness of this particular substance. There hasn't been any conclusive, widely accepted proof of its danger when used properly.

This thread would greatly benefit from the opinions of qualified people about such studies.

Correction: there was one link here to an FDA page that explains the decision they made in layman terms. One link.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[elfanie 0]

Quote

Quote

Actually, this thread is about the government banning a previously legal substance.

Correct, but almost no evidence has been presented that this is a bad decision.

Umm...
they are the ones that banned it. Wouldn't the burdon of proof be on THEM, not US? Are you also saying, "Almost no evidence has been presented that this was a good decision"?

I'd still love to see any evidence that this was a medical decision rather than a financial one.

--------------------------------------------
Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings

[Push 0]

I do not know enough about the channels for the distribution of medical information to be able to check, but I assume that the evidence you speak of is in the public domain. Again, I do not have enough knowledge to decide, even if I see that evidence, whether the evidence is satisfactory. One drug study looks a lot like another drug study to me.

I have a great deal of opinions on the level of responsibility the government must assume. Also, if we were to discuss the method of presentation of this evidence to doctors, I could chime in. I agree with you that the government needs to provide this evidence to the public, and it probably has, I don't know.

I'm neither defending nor attacking the decision of the government. I'm just pointing out that arguing over a medical subject on a skydiving forum is kind of pointless.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[kallend 2,117]

Quote

If a doctor says that Ephedra is unsafe I will not consume it. Same thing. Respecting experience is not the same thing as blindly following authority.

.

"A" doctor? I doubt most doctors have much clue about it.

No one is saying that you shouldn't respect experience. They (I) am saying that it should be YOUR decision, in consultation with your physician if you like, and NOT the government's. What business is it of the federal government?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Push 0]

Quote

They (I) am saying that it should be YOUR decision, in consultation with your physician if you like, and NOT the government's. What business is it of the federal government?

Ok, so lets argue over the responsibility of the government, and not over the chemical composition and biological side effects of Ephedrine and it's derivatives.

I agree with kallend to a point. I think that the government should not be able to ban substances outright, but it should be able to force people to consult a doctor before taking certain things. This is the business of the federal government because, at the least, it will prevent severe consumer fraud with miracle drugs.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[lawrocket 3]

I agree with kallend. I don't believe that the government should be regulating what we put in our bodies, but only to a point.

So long as people are made aware of the risks of the substances, let them do it. However, if the risks aren't being known, then let the government MAKE them known.

Why should health supplements get the free ride that other drugs do not?

On another point, why did I not see this discussion re: PPA? Do a google search on "PPA and cough syrup" and see what you come up with. Does the PPA situation look familiar?

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[misskriss 0]

Quote

why did I not see this discussion re: PPA?

I quit using anything with PPA in it a long time ago and consistently make sure that it's in none of the meds I give my kids. Good point.

[FallRate 0]

Question! Is this a ban of the production and marketing of ephedra or does this include the scheduling of ephedra to include an outright ban on Ma Huang (Ephedra equisetina). If it isn't an outright ban then it would still be possible to obtain it by growing it or purchasing the plant itself, wouldn't it?

The FDA has had its sights set on the Herbal Supplement market for quite some time. Quite a contentious debate, but it does seem that while supplements fall outside the regulatory realm of the FDA, it has caused a resurgence of Snake Oil Salesmen.

FallRate