wmw999 2,584
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Well, one of the problems, and the most common misconception of American politics, is that America is a democracy. It is not. Never was intended to be. The only decisions the people make (with the exception of the few referenda) are who will be making the decisions.
I quit the Army Reserves because, with my civilian career, I simply could not do both jobs effectively. This leaves a choice - the only honest politicians cannot do their job too effectively. That leaves the career politician who lives off the people's gravy train. Since he does't have to worry about the business of the regular marketplace, his view of everyone else is somewhat distorted.
It's easy for politicians to think they know better than the people. After all, the were elected to make those decisions. And, their main point is more power. So, their decisions will likely be those that work to their benefit, regardless of the people's.
Luckily for me, I recognize it and understand how little I can actually do about it.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
I quit the Army Reserves because, with my civilian career, I simply could not do both jobs effectively. This leaves a choice - the only honest politicians cannot do their job too effectively. That leaves the career politician who lives off the people's gravy train. Since he does't have to worry about the business of the regular marketplace, his view of everyone else is somewhat distorted.
It's easy for politicians to think they know better than the people. After all, the were elected to make those decisions. And, their main point is more power. So, their decisions will likely be those that work to their benefit, regardless of the people's.
Luckily for me, I recognize it and understand how little I can actually do about it.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
My bad. You called it a baby originally. I didn't understand you meant a "fetus".
I used to not have a problem with abortion. I, too, used to think of the embryo as a mass of cells. Then I worked in ultrasound.
Last month, I had the opportunity to see my baby at 7 weeks. Heartbeat and all. Last week, that same baby was 10 weeks old, with hands, feet, a brain. The little one was moving and kicking, and even mooned us. Hard to believe that if my fiancee wanted to abort it, she could do so tomorrow, no questions asked. I would have no say in it.
But, I suppose that's the policy.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
My wife is hotter than your wife.
Last month, I had the opportunity to see my baby at 7 weeks. Heartbeat and all. Last week, that same baby was 10 weeks old, with hands, feet, a brain. The little one was moving and kicking, and even mooned us. Hard to believe that if my fiancee wanted to abort it, she could do so tomorrow, no questions asked. I would have no say in it.
But, I suppose that's the policy.
My wife is hotter than your wife.
elfanie 0
QuoteI don't think a fetus which has no viability (less than 18-20 weeks) is a person.
HOnestly...out of everything you posted, this is the only truly relevant thing.
You do not think that a fetus that has no viability is a person. Period. That is why you are prochoice.
If you felt that it was deserving of rights and protections like any born baby, then you'd be pro life.
(and may I remind you that abortion is not just legal until viability..in some states, abortions are legal up until delivery. You can be full term pregnant and obtain an abortion..)
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The majority of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted ("miscarried"). Most women don't spend their time checking for miscarriages in the toilet so that they can have a burial. That would tend to indicate that on some levels, many other people think there's a point before which an embryonic death is not the same as a baby's.
whoah whoah whoah...
this is so...WRONG to say.
Just because searching for the baby would be futile does NOT in any way indicate a lack of concern or that they feel that the embryonic death is not the same as a baby's. And not everyone has a burial for their loved ones.....
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Is there an exact, specific, point? Probably not. The presence of meaningful brain waves would be a start.
what do you consider 'meaningful'? And are you saying that there is a minimum level of brain activity before they should be given rights? (serious question..not an accusatory question)
If so..are you willing to put that standard over to born people?
in other words...brain activity can detected in a fetus at 10 weeks...
if you're going to put a minimum level of brain activity as a marker at which abortion can not be performed...then do you also support legislation legalizing euthenization of children/adults who also do not show that same level of brain activity?
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There is nothing wrong with believing that you would never abort a fetus, and that you would mourn any miscarriage as much as you would mourn a baby. However, science doesn't really seem to support their being the same, so enforcing that belief on others doesn't seem consistent.
It's not science that abortion rights are based on. Scientifically speaking, life is created when sperm meets egg. Scientifically speaking, it is a separate life from that of either the mother or the father. ?Scientifically speaking, a newborn baby isn't the same as a toddler..different brain, different body, different abilities, different stage of development....which isn't the same as an adolescent, or an adult, or an elderly..
Science is on the side of prolifers.
But what we're talking here isn't scientifically...it's legally. Legally, we do not give the same rights to 'critters' (dogs, flies, elephants) as we do humans...so the question is a legal one. When do we consider this 'critter' to become "human worthy of human rights"? It's a philisophical debate..
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You still have to address the issue of whether you're going to sacrifice the mother's life or health because of the baby in her, and decide whether it's right or wrong to abort a baby with no chance whatsoever for life, or a meaningful life (and no, I don't mean things like Down's syndrome -- but there are syndromes that are incompatible with life).
which would be an understandable argument...except that it's irrelevant.
What this has to assume is that there are situations in which the mother's life is at risk which ABORTING the baby would better protect the mother - whereas simply removing the baby (not aborting it) would put mother's life in greater jeapordy.
What situation is that?
Or aborting a baby with complications incompatable with life...if you argue in favor of that, then you should also be consistant and argue in favor of euthenasia in instances of a child/adult having a complication incompatable with life. If a child is diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor, do you support euthenizing that child?
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It's not made up of easy situations with easy answers. And what's right for one person won't be right for another. But allowing abortions does not prevent women who want to carry all babies to term from doing so. Forbidding them has a much greater impact on women who would otherwise choose not to continue a pregnancy.
Allowing others to believe as they think is right, and act on that belief, is a pretty basic freedom.
The abortion is not a debate of whether someone has the right to believe what they want..
it is a debate of whether someone has the right to DO what they want.
And it comes down to this..
if you feel it is a person - you'll be prolife
if you feel it is not a person yet - you'll be prochoice.
If you feel it's a peson, then allowing the right to abort is like saying, "Go ahead and kill your 5 year old child.."
if you feel it is not a person, then preventing abortions is like saying, "You can not do with your body what you want..you can't get a nose job, you can't color your hair, and we're going to tell you that you have to give birth to a child even if you don't want to."
Is it a person? THAT is the only relevant question...
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And yes, even birth control fails. It's a mechanical failure, with abortion as the backup mechanism.
Again, to a prolifer...that's like saying that if you regret having a child then you should have the right to kill that child...as a backup.
if it's a child..it's a child...and it already exists (to prolifers). Abortion isn't a backup mechanism to a prolifer..it's killing.
It's a backup mechanism to a prochoicer. But is there any surprise that someone that feels that it is a person responds the way that they do?
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Elfanie
My Skydiving Page
Fly Safe - Soft Landings
The majority of pregnancies are spontaneously aborted ("miscarried"). Most women don't spend their time checking for miscarriages in the toilet so that they can have a burial. That would tend to indicate that on some levels, many other people think there's a point before which an embryonic death is not the same as a baby's.
Is there an exact, specific, point? Probably not. The presence of meaningful brain waves would be a start. As technology advances, we might be able to take embryos as soon as they're fertilized and implant them into an artifical womb to protect them.
We offer some incentives to pregnant women to take care of themselves (well, if you can call WIC and going to a clinic where you wait for hours on end an incentive). But we don't jail women who fail to take care of themselves when they're pregnant, or make them stay in the hospital.
There is nothing wrong with believing that you would never abort a fetus, and that you would mourn any miscarriage as much as you would mourn a baby. However, science doesn't really seem to support their being the same, so enforcing that belief on others doesn't seem consistent.
Abortion after 20 weeks or so (which approaches viability, as long as you understand that the percentages are extremely low, and the problems extremely complicated)? There we get into a lot more issues. You still have to address the issue of whether you're going to sacrifice the mother's life or health because of the baby in her, and decide whether it's right or wrong to abort a baby with no chance whatsoever for life, or a meaningful life (and no, I don't mean things like Down's syndrome -- but there are syndromes that are incompatible with life).
It's not made up of easy situations with easy answers. And what's right for one person won't be right for another. But allowing abortions does not prevent women who want to carry all babies to term from doing so. Forbidding them has a much greater impact on women who would otherwise choose not to continue a pregnancy.
Allowing others to believe as they think is right, and act on that belief, is a pretty basic freedom.
And yes, even birth control fails. It's a mechanical failure, with abortion as the backup mechanism.
Wendy W.
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