Gun Control Laws Don't Work!

[FliegendeWolf 0]

I think we've officially found JohnRich's cause.

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[cvfd1399 0]

I train so that when the CRIMINAL has your wife and kids at gun point I HAVE the right to eliminate the threat. P.S. citizens have equal rights as the police do. YOU as a properly trained gun knowledgeable citizen have the same right to shoot someone that is threatening someone with their life or grave injury that I do. Why would you not want that power to save a life? I shot a expert 100% score on the post handgun and shotgun course. I am not tooting my own horn I just think it is a right that everyone should safely enjoy an use b/c I guarantee you that the people that want to do harm to you have no feelings of regret to shoot you. Actions are faster than reactions BUST HIS ASS.

[Remster 30]

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I think we've officially found JohnRich's cause.

You think? I hadnd made he connection....

Remster

[b1jercat 0]

No wait we gotta beat this dead horse one more time. Over and over and over again. WTF

blues
jerry

[FrogNog 1]

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Isn't the number of gun murders in the US like 11,000 per year while Canada's is pretty much always less than a few hundred?

Even if that were true, is that the whole story? What about other types of murder? I consider murder with a knife or a club just as concerning as a firearm murder. I need to know the total number of murders (from which I will calculate the per capita murder rate) before I can say one is better than the other.

It may be tempting to say that 11,000 is so much larger than a few hundred that obviously gun control works, etc. etc., but I'm a fan of doing math the long way - write out all the pertinent variables, document assumptions, indicate margins of error, and so on. Nothing personal, but this isn't what Michael Moore does; he's a filmmaker, not a statistician.

Legitimate firearm crime (including murder) statistics for the US are available broken down by year/county/crime type from the FBI, I believe. This is what the statistician John R. Lott used in his work that resulted in the book "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws". I would have to look in my copy to find out how representative that 11,000 number is.

For Canadian numbers, good luck.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Guest]

"Guns cause crime like flies cause garbage."

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[wmw999 2,587]

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I train so that when the CRIMINAL has your wife and kids at gun point I HAVE the right to eliminate the threat.

And I train so that when I am confronted with a RABID BAT I can evade it effectively. Frankly, for the overwhelming majority of US Americans, the chances of either are pretty close to equal. Really. Not that violence doesn't happen, but it is publicized very effectively indeed.

These things are possible. When was the last time you practiced a fire drill in your home? That's probably a lot more likely an event to happen.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[AggieDave 6]

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When was the last time you practiced a fire drill in your home?

When I got back to college station from Xmas w/ the parents, something didn't feel right when I drove up to my house, so I roomcleared each room of the house in the correct order/fasion with my firearm and my mid-sized maglight.

Does that count as a fire drill?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Tonto 1]

This is fasinating!

It covers the same period so many white South Africans were leaving SA to move to... The UK, Australia and Canada!

The crime rate here is dropping. Does this mean that the SA "Brain drain" are all career criminals moving to greener pastures?

Seriously?

I think people should have the right to defend themselves.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[FallRate 0]

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Does that count as a fire drill?

A bit more like paranoia.

FallRate

[cvfd1399 0]

It is funny you ask that about the fire drill thing as I am a firefighter also.)) I have an escape plan and gear and a airpack as well to start working on the fire before the local dept gets here. I also slice the pie of every room when I get bored and noone is home.

[JohnRich 4]

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That post made my eyes bleed...

Why?

[JohnRich 4]

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Isn't the number of gun murders in the US like 11,000 per year while Canada's is pretty much always less than a few hundred? Even adjusting for population I'd say that says something about the effectiveness of gun control. I'm just loosely quoting Bowling For Columbine here...

Depending upon Michael Moore for facts is a problem - he's full of inaccuracies, misrepresentations, and outright lies.

It is true that Canada has fewer murders per capita than the U.S. But that was even more true further back in time. The more gun laws they have implemented, the higher their gun murder rate has climbed. Thus, gun control laws don't work.

Meanwhile, here in America, we've had something like a 42% drop in gun murders over the last 10 years, despite the fact that we haven't implemented the same laws as Canada, Australia or England. These include things like gun registration, and outright confiscation.

What you can conclude from these examples, is that gun laws have no effect upon crime rates.

Gun laws don't work!

[JohnRich 4]

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There are 2 categories of guns in my book fully auto and semi-auto. Assault weapons fall into the semi-auto category as well as fully auto.

Clarification:

The military definition of an "assault weapon" is one that is capable of full-auto fire.

However, the political definition, in the Clinton assault weapon gun ban which is set to expire in Sept. '04, includes only semi-auto firearms.

The anti-gun organizations play on this confusion to make the general public believe that so-called "assault weapons" are machine guns, when in fact what they are talking about is not.

As that gun law comes closer to expiring, and the anti-gun politicians rant their lies to try and renew it, watch for this tactic in the news.

[JohnRich 4]

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I'm all for gun control, but I know it's not the solution to the problem. It's more a treatment of the symptom. This might seem like a contradiction, but it's not.

Please explain why this is not a contradiction.

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I ask you. What gives you the right to shoot and kill another person? What gives you the right to train for and get the means to do so?

The law.

Texas laws on deadly force

Would you prefer that everyone be helpless to defend themselves against violent criminals?

[n2skdvn 0]

(sarcastic mode) nice can of worms ya got there when did ya open it? (/sarcastic mode)

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[JohnRich 4]

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The article is also extremely vague when it talks about crime rates rising and falling in Can vs US. Our per capita gun murder rate would still have to increase like 1000% to reach that of the US.

It's not vague at all when you download and read the entire report. It's very specific:

"The Canadian government uses the falling homicide rate and the falling rate of violent crime to support the claim that these firearm laws are working to reduce criminal violence. Unfortunately for this argument, the homicide rate has been falling as fast or faster in the United States (figure 11), where during the same time frame, more than 25 states have introduced less restrictive firearm laws. The homicide rate in the United States has fallen from 10.5 per 100,000 in 1991 to 6.1 per 100,000 while the Canadian rate has fallen from 2.7 per 100,000 to 1.8."

So, Canada, with more restrictive laws, has had a 33% drop. The U.S., with less restrictive laws, has had a 42% drop. Conclusion: gun control laws don't work!

And Canada's per capita rate is 340% less than the U.S., not 1,000%. You were only off by 300%...

[JohnRich 4]

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I think we've officially found JohnRich's cause.

I have many causes - this is but one of them. So what? Is there something wrong with fighting for what one thinks is right? Don't you have causes you care for, besides killing kittens? Do you have something worthwhile to contribute to this topic of discussion?

[JohnRich 4]

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Gun laws most certainly do work!!!!

Can you provide an example?

[quade 4]

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It is true that Canada has fewer murders per capita than the U.S. But that was even more true further back in time. The more gun laws they have implemented, the higher their gun murder rate has climbed. Thus, gun control laws don't work.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship that isn't proven to exist.

It would be about the same as saying that the more times we vote a member of the Bush familiy into the office of the President the more times we'll be attacked by terrorists.

While numerically true as seen by the events of September 11, there isn't a proven cause and effect.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[JohnRich 4]

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It may be tempting to say that 11,000 is so much larger than a few hundred that obviously gun control works, etc. etc., but I'm a fan of doing math the long way - write out all the pertinent variables...

Correct - comparing absolute numbers, for nations with vastly unequal populations, is worthless. You need "per capita" comparisons.

And to be precise, the number of gun murders in the U.S. in 2002, was 9,369, not 11,000, as the other participant suggested. (FBI Uniform Crime Report)

[JohnRich 4]

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And I train so that when I am confronted with a RABID BAT I can evade it effectively. Frankly, for the overwhelming majority of US Americans, the chances of either are pretty close to equal.

In the United States in 2000:

A murder is committed every 32 minutes.
A forcible rape is committed every 5 minutes.
A robbery is committed every 1 minute.
A aggravated assault is committed every 35 seconds.
A violent crime is committed every 22 seconds.

(FBI, Uniform Crime Report)

There were more people murdered in Chicago last year, than there have been soldiers killed in the war in Iraq.

In 2002, one out of every 200 people in America was a victim of violent crime.

In the time it took you to read this message, someone has had their life changed forever by a violent crime.

Have a nice day. :-)

[kallend 2,146]

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And I train so that when I am confronted with a RABID BAT I can evade it effectively. Frankly, for the overwhelming majority of US Americans, the chances of either are pretty close to equal.

In the United States in 2000:

A murder is committed every 32 minutes.
A forcible rape is committed every 5 minutes.
A robbery is committed every 1 minute.
A aggravated assault is committed every 35 seconds.
A violent crime is committed every 22 seconds.

(FBI, Uniform Crime Report)

There were more people murdered in Chicago last year, than there have been soldiers killed in the war in Iraq.

In 2002, one out of every 200 people in America was a victim of violent crime.

In the time it took you to read this message, someone has had their life changed forever by a violent crime.

Have a nice day. :-)

Data like this are totally meaningless unless you have the population numbers for comparison.

Just as most of your conclusions are meaningless.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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It is true that Canada has fewer murders per capita than the U.S. But that was even more true further back in time. The more gun laws they have implemented, the higher their gun murder rate has climbed. Thus, gun control laws don't work.

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You're assuming a cause and effect relationship that isn't proven to exist.

No, I'm demonstrating that there is no cause and effect relationship. Those who think that gun laws work, should be able to demonstrate that when gun laws are enacted, that gun crime drops. Instead, as this report demonstrates, gun crime continues to go up despite the new gun laws. I'm not saying that the gun laws caused the gun crime rate to go up, I'm just saying that rising gun crime demonstrates the ineffectiveness of gun laws.

Gun laws don't work!

[JohnRich 4]

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Data like this are totally meaningless unless you have the population numbers for comparison.

The population of the U.S. is a fairly well known number. If you don't know it, I'm sure you could quickly find it on the internet. Do you need help?

Besides, I also said that "1 in 200" is a victim of violent crime. Isn't that enough of a per capita number for you?

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Just as most of your conclusions are meaningless.

Ah yes, the generic criticism, void of any specifics. It's so easy to throw out here, since you don't actually provide any facts or logic to support anything. It's worthless and meaningless.