Gun Control: Liberals vs. Conservatives vs. Southerners

[AggieDave 6]

Thankyou! Obviously, taking time to make sure my fingers typed what I thought in the correct spelling is not one of my strong suits.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Gawain 0]

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Hehe...another interesting turn of events. I guess my non-american logic fails here- that disabling an attacker can be worse than killing him simply doesn't compute.

It happens...believe it.

In New York a few years ago, a taxi driver chased down a criminal (in his car) down an alley. He pinned criminal against the wall until the cops came.

Then later, the guy sued the taxi driver and was awarded something like $60,000. A lot of people around the city raised money to pay the judgement for him.

That's the cliff-notes version anyway...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhillyKev 0]

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Dave you do know that shooting reloads in your glock would void the warranty don't you?

Technically it would, but as far as I know, Glock has never turned down a warranty claim for any reason.

[JohnRich 4]

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I was thinking about getting my concealed carry - what would be your suggestion - I have shot expert with the navy's version of a 45.

I see that you are a Texan, and there is a peculiarity with qualifying for a CCW here.

If you use a revolver to qualify, then you are authorized to carry only a revolver for your CCW.

However, if you qualify with a semi-auto pistol, then you are authorized to carry either a pistol or a revolver.

I think the logic is that a pistol is more complicated, and if you can handle that, then a revolver is no problem. But the reverse is not necessarily true.

And you don't have to qualify with the firearm which you intend to carry concealed. You can use something with which you are most familiar, but carry something else.

So my recommendation is to qualify with whatever semi-auto pistol you are best with, which sounds like a .45. You don't want to use something tiny and inaccurate, as you are required to shoot with some degree of accuracy to pass - so don't handicap yourself with some tiny thing that is hard to hold and shoot.

[JohnRich 4]

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The percentage of people that are shot with hand guns and survive is actually quite high.

Correct! The deadliness of handguns is a highly overrated myth, perpetuated by Hollywood and anti-gun organizations.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Firearm Injury from Crime" (NCJ-160093), April, 1995:

"An estimated 57,500 nonfatal gunshot wounds from assaults were treated in hospital ER's from June 1992 through May 1993."

If guns are so deadly, how come they didn't die after being shot?

"About 60% of the victims of nonfatal firearm injury from crime who went to an emergency room were subsequently hospitalized."

In other words, 40% walked out under their own power after being shot.

"Firearm related crime and resulting injury is a relatively rare event... NCVS data for 1987-1992 found that of the victims of nonfatal violent crime who faced an assailant armed with a firearm, 3% suffered gunshot wounds."

97% of people facing an armed criminal aren't even shot!

"The 1992 National Hospital Ambulatory Medical Care Survey shows that 0.3% of all injury visits to emergency departments (3 of every 1,000 visits) were caused by firearms."

99.7% of all emergency room visits are not related to firearms!

"How often are victims injured as a result of crimes with firearms? NCVS data for 1987-1992 show about 17% of victims of non-fatal gun crimes were injured. Of those injured, 61% receive minor injuries. Few of those injured received injuries resulting from discharge of a firearm; about 19% suffered from gunshot wounds."

"How many people are injured by firearms and how many are the result of crime? The Center for Disease Control (CDC) estimates that in 1992 about 99,000 nonfatal firearm-related injuries were treated in hospital emergency rooms."

99,000 people were shot and didn't die!

Guns really aren't as sure-fire deadly as most people have been led to believe.

[JohnRich 4]

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What if the threat is to someone else?? Can you shoot the bad guy in that case??

State laws vary, but I would think they would all agree on this. The answer is "yes".

Here is how the law in Texas is written:

 9.33.  Defense of Third Person


A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another

to protect a third person if:

(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them

to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31 or 9.32

in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the

unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes

to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and

(2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is

immediately necessary to protect the third person. 

Sections 9.31 & 9.32 refer to the section where the valid reasons for use of deadly force are defined.

So in other words, if you were in the shoes of the victim being attacked, and deadly force was allowed for that person in their circumstances, then it is also permissible for a third-person to step in and use deadly force on their behalf.

[JohnRich 4]

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To use deadly force in the aid of another, at least in most places, you better be correct on what the heck is going on. If you are wrong, you may be in jail for a long time. At least, that is my understanding for most places.

Very true. This is an endeavor that is fraught with danger for someone who is trying to be a good samaritan.

For example, let's say you come upon two men fighting, and one is losing badly. You pull out your gun and shoot the guy that is winning the fight, in order to save the other guy.

It might turn out that the guy you just shot, is an undercover cop, subduing a violent criminal.

And then you're in deep shit. Beware.

I'm not the type that says "don't get involved", because there are way too many people in our society who turn the other way, to our detriment as a whole. However, you do need to be cautious.

[Kennedy 0]

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I'm sorry, but if I have a choice between wounding and killing a person where both have the same result (in this case, end of immediate threat to me), I will ALWAYS choose wounding, no matter how good the legal arguments for killing are.

OK, this is as far as I got in the thread before my eyes started to tear up.

Here's the simple answer: as an "expert" do you think you could hit a target that was one inch wide by about a foot long? Do you think you could do it under stress? Do you think you could do that while it was in motion? If you answered yes to all three, you have a ridiculous definition of "expert," and you're wrong.

btw - If you couldn't tell, I was describing a femur that was running at you, attached to said attacker with knife.

I'd loved a magic wand that I could wave and knock anyone down and pin them without killing them, that worked every time. You come up with that, and I would consider not worrying about CCW.

Until then, what "wound" exactly, could you inflict that would stop an attacker? Remember, you have less than two seconds to stop him before he stabs you. [oh, and you're probably dead before you finished reading that sentence]

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[OATSF14 0]

I love humor like this. My buddies and I all conceal carry. I can see us arguing over the tightest group.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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To use deadly force in the aid of another, at least in most places, you better be correct on what the heck is going on. If you are wrong, you may be in jail for a long time. At least, that is my understanding for most places.

Very true. This is an endeavor that is fraught with danger for someone who is trying to be a good samaritan.

For example, let's say you come upon two men fighting, and one is losing badly. You pull out your gun and shoot the guy that is winning the fight, in order to save the other guy.

It might turn out that the guy you just shot, is an undercover cop, subduing a violent criminal.

And then you're in deep shit. Beware.

I'm not the type that says "don't get involved", because there are way too many people in our society who turn the other way, to our detriment as a whole. However, you do need to be cautious.

Wouldn't you be covered under the "what was it reasonable for you to think was happening" clause?

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[JohnRich 4]

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Wouldn't you be covered under the "what was it reasonable for you to think was happening" clause?

Maybe, but I think you would have a difficult time proving it, and since the guy you just shot was an undercover cop, the cards would be stacked against you.

[jumprunner 0]

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The difference between Liberals, Conservatives, and Southerners You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges.

You are carrying a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

What do you do?


Liberal Answer: Well, that's not enough information to answer the question! Does the man look poor or oppressed? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack? Could we run away? What does my wife think? What about the kids? Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation? Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun and what kind of message does this send to society and my children? Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me? If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me? This is all so confusing! I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

Conservative Answer: BANG!

Southerner's Answer: BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click...(sounds of reloading). Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?" Son: "Mom's right, Dad. I saw it too..." BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click. Daughter: "Nice group, Daddy!


There ya go, a little humor to the wildly heated pro-gun/anti-gun debates. Enjoy.

LOL- l luv it!!! But you forgot the Texan awnser,

Texan: First shoot him in the leg, then rip his tongue out and shoot him in the mouth, but leave him alive long enough to hang him, but just before he dies shoot him in the groin.

[lawrocket 3]

Actually, for third person liability purposes, you assume the "alter ego" of the person being defended.

That is, if the person you are defending with deadly force has the right to defend with deadly force, then you can use it. If not, you are toast. This is the old common law rule.

Under the Model Penal Code (states may use it or not use it to base their laws) justified force by an intervenor in order to protect a third party if:

1) he uses no more force to protect the third-party than he would be entitled to use in self-protection, based on the circumstances as he believes them to be;
2) under the circumstances as he believes them to be, the third party would be justified in using such force in self-defense; and
3) he believes that intervention is necessary for the third party’s protection.

Actually, I view the modern rule as stricter. You put the third party's honest belief at issue. This means if the third party didn't think he was going to get killed, but she was, the intervenor loses the defense.

How could this happen? Say some dude is beating his wife, pulls a knife and is going to kill her. Wife's been beaten lots of times, but still loves him and doesn't think he'd really hurt her. Intervenor uses deadly force and kills perp.

Wife need only testify that she didn't think perp would really hurt her badly or kill her.

Intervenor goes to jail. For a while...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[JohnRich 4]

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My buddies and I all conceal carry.

Your profile says you are from California. CA doesn't issue many concealed carry licenses. They are approved by individual county sheriff's, only if you can prove that you need one. CA is notorious for declining CCW requests. Furthermore, it is against the law to have a loaded gun in your car in CA without such a CCW license.

So, if you and all your buddies all carry a concealed firearm, it sounds like you are making yourself subject to arrest.

[JohnRich 4]

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You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges...

Here are some real life stories from the news, similar to that, where armed citizens have defended themselves with guns.

The Armed Citizen

A 73-year-old St.Louis County, Mo., man looked up from his television one night to see an armed man holding 4" shears to his wife's throat. The intruder had broken into the couple's basement through a window and tied a curtain around his face as a mask. The man grabbed the homeowner's wife when she came downstairs and forced her into the living room where he demanded money from her husband. The homeowner managed to keep his wits about him and told the bandit that he needed to retrieve his wallet from the bedroom. He returned instead with a gun and, as his wife pulled away, shot her captor. The man was able to pull the woman outside with him, but finally succumbed to his wounds and collapsed.
(St. Louis Post-Dispatch, St. Louis, MO, 11/20/03)

Jeff Pantzer of Stuart, Fla., was awakened in the night by the sound of blinds rattling. Someone had broken in just five months previously, and Pantzer now kept a shotgun just in case. He took up his gun and fired
as he saw a man's legs enter his window, scaring the would-be burglar right out of his slioes. "My safety was my first consideration," Pantzer said. "It was real quick, he was halfway in the window... I fired, and he exited the window at the same time..." The suspect was not apprehended, but police say he may be linked to four similar burglaries in the area.
(The News, Stuart, FL, 11/27/03)

A Salem, Mass., resident learned what a great deterrent owning a gun can be. The resident called police, not to report being a victim of a crime, but to say that he discovered a man "all dressed in black"
trying to break into his home. The resident aimed his gun at the would-be intruder, who decided to cut his losses and run.
(The Salem News, Salem, MA, 11/28/03)

Two armed men burst into a Coatesville, Pa., home and demanded money from the two occupants in the living room. One of the armed invaders went up to the master bedroom and threatened to shoot or beat the couple in bed if they didn't hand over some money. The man in bed, identified as Omar Reid, grabbed a pistol from the nightstand drawer and shot the robber just as he shot at Reid. With one intruder down, Reid then raced down the stairs where he encountered the second man and they exchanged fire. The second home invader fled the scene. Reid was not injured during the gunfire. The wounded invader was taken to the hospital.
(Daily Local News, Westchester, PA, 11/7/03)

When Judy Abram had her sisters over to play dominoes, a man walked up to the house and attempted to break through Abram's living room window. She yelled at the man to leave, but he continued coming in the window. Abram then ran to her bedroom and returned with a pistol She aimed it at the home invader saying, "Can't you see I have a gun? Get out of here!" The intruder continued to advance on her so she fired at him, emptying her gun. Suffering from a gunshot wound to the chest, the home-invader then went to a neighbor's house, where he crashed through the living room window and collapsed. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
(San Antonio Express-News), San Antonio, TX, 11/03/03)

A Freeport, N.Y., woman has her boyfriend and his brother to thank for rescuing her from a rapist. First Squad Det. Lt. Andrew Fal of Nassau, NY, reported that the suspect was believed to have been hiding in the
basement of the home for some time. When the woman's boyfriend left for work, the intruder hid his face with a surgical mask and went upstairs. He attacked the woman in her bedroom, punching her repeatedly in the face, and then tried to rape her. The boyfriend's brother, who also lives in the home, heard the commotion and thought his brother was having a fight with his girlfriend. He called the brother on his cell phone to see what was going on, and when his brother told him he was driving to work, the two realized the woman was in real trouble. The brother called the police and retrieved a 9 mm pistol The woman's boyfriend returned to the house where he and his brother confronted her attacker, holding him at gunpoint until authorities arrived and placed her attacker under arrest.
(Newsday, New York, NY, 11/22/03)

A Madison County, Miss., woman shot and killed her attacker during a home invasion. The woman had answered her door late one evening when a man armed with a gun forced his way inside. "He physically assaulted her," reported Madison County Sheriff Toby Trowbridge. The homeowner managed to pull her gun just as her attacker drew his. The home invader, shot in the abdomen, ran from the house and collapsed in the driveway, according to police reports. A suspected accomplice drove away in a car and has not been located. The homeowner was taken to the hospital suffering from a gunshot wound to her side, and was
reported to be in stable condition.
(Clarion-Ledger, Jackson, MS, 12/02/03)

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