dkf1979 0 #1 February 9, 2004 opinions please Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 4 #2 February 9, 2004 Hmmm, and I always designed in a 20% growth factor. quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #3 February 9, 2004 You can't safely go 25% over a breaker's capacity. Most breakers are rated at must not trip and must trip points; 20A means that it must not trip at 20 amps, but may trip at 21. Must-trip means that at, say, 25 amps it is guaranteed to trip. You may luck out at 22 amps for a while, but I definitely wouldn't rely on that power for anything important (like a computer or VCR.) If you're using a 20a breaker make sure you're using 20 amp outlets and correct gauge (12 minimum) for wiring. Do NOT use the push-in wiring feature of cheap outlets; use the screw terminals on the sides. You might want to get a motor economizer for the vacuum. They can reduce power draw. Also switch from 100 watt lights to 30 watt compact flourescents. They put out more light, use less power, last longer and generate less heat (which means the air conditioner takes less power too.) If it's still a problem, go to a smaller space heater or more efficient A/C. May be cheaper than running a new line. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GroundZero 0 #4 February 9, 2004 Are you freakin nuts? asking people like us... (see attached photo, that's outa one socket I split 4 times before it arrived here...) If it's upstairs... that means radio = Stereo system (see attached photo). Gotta have a bigscreen up there for the guys to watch the game (see attached photo). Gonna need a blender to make girly drinks when entertaining (see attached photo). Add the magic fingers gizmo to the heated waterbed (floor not rated for the weight, but hey, look at our wiring...see attached photo). If he makes it a reading room, no problem, but if he's talking about making it his lil hide-a-way, well (see attached photo). Save time and just ducktape another run of romex to the wall running up from the breaker. Gonna be huge demands for juice in that party room! Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #5 February 9, 2004 Quoteopinions please Kaboom! Just kidding. I've not a clue. Flip a switch, see what happens. So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jtval 0 #6 February 9, 2004 QuoteAre you freakin nuts? asking people like us... (see attached photo, that's outa one socket I split 4 times brfore it arrived here...) Chris BWWAHAHAHMy photos My Videos Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoPush 0 #7 February 9, 2004 Your diagram is with in code spec. Your allowed 8 outlets/devices/fixtures for 14awg(gauge) wire and 13 for 12awg. Breakers are tripped by heat under load and vary from -8% to +25% tolerance which also depends on brand. (i.e. Sylvania/Cutler-Hammer are trigger happy, while SqaureD and Bryant can take their share of heat. There is no safety issue here....but if the breaker trips more than say 10 times in the course of a year.....replace it and consider adding a circuit or better manage your load. Every time a breaker trips it gets more sensitive.......kind of like my girl friend.........never mind.. ;( Cheers Edited for errors......been drinkin'....couldn't read my own damn post....figures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoPush 0 #8 February 9, 2004 Quote Do NOT use the push-in wiring feature of cheap outlets; use the screw terminals on the sides. Quote Great point........never use the stabs on any application! It's a spring and they relax when they get hot. Like a nail backing out of siding...the wire runs away......like my......oh never mind Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skycop 0 #9 February 9, 2004 Damn billvon, I would never ask you about politics BUT, would you come over and re-wire my house?! "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dkf1979 0 #10 February 9, 2004 Thanks for the info. I'm a carpenter. I know what wiring is supposed to look like when done, but I don't know specifications. I've never trusted the push in type. I always give the connection a tug to check it, and i've had those pull out rather easy. Thanks for the info. Feel much better. For the most part the attics for storage. But he said his sons talking about putting a tv and playstation up there.http://bodypilot.bounceme.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #11 February 9, 2004 Quoteopinions please Not a electrican but according to the "code" dummy book. IMO think resale even if installation is going to be inspected now A receptable is required every 12 ft., any wall so one receptable on the 30 'wall is a no no. According to code.Cheap fix outlet & box $3 ea Suggest you check out electrical book from library if you need a seperate circuit for a/c, heater and any other infoR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bch7773 0 #12 February 9, 2004 oh geez man whats the problem? just plug a 30 Amp breaker in there and you won't get those annoying electricity breaks. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #13 February 9, 2004 I'd rather have nuisance tripps than a house fire - wiring is the most common cause of house fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cvfd1399 0 #14 February 9, 2004 I agree...huh?? The only thing I can add is don't use aluminum wiring even if you can get some and it seems like a good deal. I have seen many houses ablaze b/c of that stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pleifer 0 #15 February 9, 2004 If this is truly a "direct line" (hint make sure it is) some electricians can be creative. make sure the wire is of the correct gauge. if it is 10 pop in a larger breaker into the panel. if the wire is too small, you will overheat it. I do not know what the max 12 gauge will handle. if it is a newer house this is prob what is used if it is older, might be 14, and if it is really old might even be that cloth insulated crap _________________________________________ The Angel of Duh has spoke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mwabd1 0 #16 February 9, 2004 Save yourself alot of headache in the future and pull a seperate line just for the a/c, and the heater. You'll never use them both at the same time so a 20a circuit should surfice. What is the main box, ( square d, cutler hammer?) If it's a pg&e I would upgrade it, with a pacific gas and electric box you can weld with a regular 110v breaker and it will never trip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #17 February 9, 2004 Run a separate 20 amp circuit for the A/C / space heater. It's a pain in the ass, but you need to do it. Fires suck. Code says outlets can't any more than 6ft away from whatever they have plugged into them, hence the 12' spacing. I forget what the minimum height is - I put mine in at 24" in most places. 12 gauge wire for your 20 amp circuits - 14 for the light circuits. Use stranded wire if you can, it has better load-carrying capabilites and is alot easier to work with than solid. Do not exceed 20 amps total on a circuit wired with 12 ga and 15 amps total for a circuit wired with 14 gauge. A cool little book to keep on hand is "Ugly's Electrical References". Available at your local electrical supply house, for less than 20 bones. Lots of info, easy to use, pocket size book, and way easier to read then the NEC. Much cheaper, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RevJim 0 #18 February 9, 2004 Lots of good advice here, but let me add one more bit. Check the wire gauge size at the breaker in the box. If it's on a 20 amp breaker as you say, it should be 12 gauge, but it may be 10. If it's 14, change to a 15 amp breaker. OK, now for the fun part. You can put lights and outlets on the same circuit, but remember this little bit of info: The size of wire in your main breaker panel must be continued for the entire circuit. If it starts with 12 gauge, ALL must be 12 gauge. Same for 10 or 14. There is NO loophole around this. Trust me, I just got nailed on it myself in a recent inspection of my remodel. It was cheap to run the wires. The expensive part was pulling down a section of wall to replace ONE FRIGGIN WIRE!!! It's not that it was too small, it just wasn't the same as the rest on the circuit.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Dumpster 0 #19 February 9, 2004 QuoteIt was cheap to run the wires. The expensive part was pulling down a section of wall to replace ONE FRIGGIN WIRE!!! Forgot about that detail! (I do mostly industrial stuff myself.) I'm surprised they didn't specify an open-wall inspection. (That's what the local code calls for here on remodels-) Makes it easier for the inpspector to ding you and easier to fix said dings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dkf1979 0 #20 February 9, 2004 Oh yeah. No aluminum wiring. I've never understood that shit. COST? If you bend it more than a couple of times it breaks. Break, arc, melting metal onto wood.... FIRE!! The existing line is a direct homerun for sure. 20A on 12 gauge copper. I'm thinking i'll run a new line for the AC/HEATER. I think it will be hard now? Wait till i'm done with the attic. Then it will be a real bitch. http://bodypilot.bounceme.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tandembrent 0 #21 February 10, 2004 if you are going to finish the walls, save everyone major wall repairs now by running a new circuit to the attic. and if your going to run 1 new circuit, tape another peice of romex ( i assume ) to your pull rope and run 2 . believe me it's much easier now than after all the finish work. you allready know that your above the breakers rating, don't push an electrical system, you know it won't work, and it's ultimately deadly.~~~~Green grass and high clouds forever~~~~ no matter where you go, there you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #22 February 10, 2004 Nope, never gonna work. Wear lots of rubber in your attic and you'll be fine tho. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloudseeker2001 0 #23 February 10, 2004 You will never do any electrical work in my home! Add all the watts together and divide by 120-that will give you total amps. For summer I got 21.5 and winter 19.0...........NO breaker company will ever say you can load our breakers up 25% over the specs-that is crazy. In fact, the facility I maintain we under load all our circuts by 25%! If you run that system, you will over load everything, trip breakers and when(not if), when the breaker fails, you will burn the place down. Run a seprate line for the A/C and heater and if it is more that 12ft, use nothing less than #10 or #12 wire. Good Luck! "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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skycop 0 #9 February 9, 2004 Damn billvon, I would never ask you about politics BUT, would you come over and re-wire my house?! "Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dkf1979 0 #10 February 9, 2004 Thanks for the info. I'm a carpenter. I know what wiring is supposed to look like when done, but I don't know specifications. I've never trusted the push in type. I always give the connection a tug to check it, and i've had those pull out rather easy. Thanks for the info. Feel much better. For the most part the attics for storage. But he said his sons talking about putting a tv and playstation up there.http://bodypilot.bounceme.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #11 February 9, 2004 Quoteopinions please Not a electrican but according to the "code" dummy book. IMO think resale even if installation is going to be inspected now A receptable is required every 12 ft., any wall so one receptable on the 30 'wall is a no no. According to code.Cheap fix outlet & box $3 ea Suggest you check out electrical book from library if you need a seperate circuit for a/c, heater and any other infoR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #12 February 9, 2004 oh geez man whats the problem? just plug a 30 Amp breaker in there and you won't get those annoying electricity breaks. MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #13 February 9, 2004 I'd rather have nuisance tripps than a house fire - wiring is the most common cause of house fires. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #14 February 9, 2004 I agree...huh?? The only thing I can add is don't use aluminum wiring even if you can get some and it seems like a good deal. I have seen many houses ablaze b/c of that stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pleifer 0 #15 February 9, 2004 If this is truly a "direct line" (hint make sure it is) some electricians can be creative. make sure the wire is of the correct gauge. if it is 10 pop in a larger breaker into the panel. if the wire is too small, you will overheat it. I do not know what the max 12 gauge will handle. if it is a newer house this is prob what is used if it is older, might be 14, and if it is really old might even be that cloth insulated crap _________________________________________ The Angel of Duh has spoke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mwabd1 0 #16 February 9, 2004 Save yourself alot of headache in the future and pull a seperate line just for the a/c, and the heater. You'll never use them both at the same time so a 20a circuit should surfice. What is the main box, ( square d, cutler hammer?) If it's a pg&e I would upgrade it, with a pacific gas and electric box you can weld with a regular 110v breaker and it will never trip. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #17 February 9, 2004 Run a separate 20 amp circuit for the A/C / space heater. It's a pain in the ass, but you need to do it. Fires suck. Code says outlets can't any more than 6ft away from whatever they have plugged into them, hence the 12' spacing. I forget what the minimum height is - I put mine in at 24" in most places. 12 gauge wire for your 20 amp circuits - 14 for the light circuits. Use stranded wire if you can, it has better load-carrying capabilites and is alot easier to work with than solid. Do not exceed 20 amps total on a circuit wired with 12 ga and 15 amps total for a circuit wired with 14 gauge. A cool little book to keep on hand is "Ugly's Electrical References". Available at your local electrical supply house, for less than 20 bones. Lots of info, easy to use, pocket size book, and way easier to read then the NEC. Much cheaper, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RevJim 0 #18 February 9, 2004 Lots of good advice here, but let me add one more bit. Check the wire gauge size at the breaker in the box. If it's on a 20 amp breaker as you say, it should be 12 gauge, but it may be 10. If it's 14, change to a 15 amp breaker. OK, now for the fun part. You can put lights and outlets on the same circuit, but remember this little bit of info: The size of wire in your main breaker panel must be continued for the entire circuit. If it starts with 12 gauge, ALL must be 12 gauge. Same for 10 or 14. There is NO loophole around this. Trust me, I just got nailed on it myself in a recent inspection of my remodel. It was cheap to run the wires. The expensive part was pulling down a section of wall to replace ONE FRIGGIN WIRE!!! It's not that it was too small, it just wasn't the same as the rest on the circuit.It's your life, live it! Karma RB#684 "Corcho", ASK#60, Muff#3520, NCB#398, NHDZ#4, C-33989, DG#1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #19 February 9, 2004 QuoteIt was cheap to run the wires. The expensive part was pulling down a section of wall to replace ONE FRIGGIN WIRE!!! Forgot about that detail! (I do mostly industrial stuff myself.) I'm surprised they didn't specify an open-wall inspection. (That's what the local code calls for here on remodels-) Makes it easier for the inpspector to ding you and easier to fix said dings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dkf1979 0 #20 February 9, 2004 Oh yeah. No aluminum wiring. I've never understood that shit. COST? If you bend it more than a couple of times it breaks. Break, arc, melting metal onto wood.... FIRE!! The existing line is a direct homerun for sure. 20A on 12 gauge copper. I'm thinking i'll run a new line for the AC/HEATER. I think it will be hard now? Wait till i'm done with the attic. Then it will be a real bitch. http://bodypilot.bounceme.net Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tandembrent 0 #21 February 10, 2004 if you are going to finish the walls, save everyone major wall repairs now by running a new circuit to the attic. and if your going to run 1 new circuit, tape another peice of romex ( i assume ) to your pull rope and run 2 . believe me it's much easier now than after all the finish work. you allready know that your above the breakers rating, don't push an electrical system, you know it won't work, and it's ultimately deadly.~~~~Green grass and high clouds forever~~~~ no matter where you go, there you are! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #22 February 10, 2004 Nope, never gonna work. Wear lots of rubber in your attic and you'll be fine tho. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloudseeker2001 0 #23 February 10, 2004 You will never do any electrical work in my home! Add all the watts together and divide by 120-that will give you total amps. For summer I got 21.5 and winter 19.0...........NO breaker company will ever say you can load our breakers up 25% over the specs-that is crazy. In fact, the facility I maintain we under load all our circuts by 25%! If you run that system, you will over load everything, trip breakers and when(not if), when the breaker fails, you will burn the place down. Run a seprate line for the A/C and heater and if it is more that 12ft, use nothing less than #10 or #12 wire. Good Luck! "Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance, others mean and rueful of the western dream" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
