New York Gun Owners

[mnischalke 0]

Eh, I can make nearly any semi-automatic firearm seem as if it were select fire. Full auto is cool on the range, but terribly impractical even for a criminal hell bent on taking out a bunch of people. Guess that's why they are used only in the scantest number of crimes.

BTW, what you're agreeing with is not what I believe Kallend is saying (much to the surprise of my startled eyes!).

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[Kennedy 0]

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I'm not sure which particular spat that was!

I was referring to our little tiff in posts 79-81, concerning this post of yours.

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However, I am a literalist when it comes to interpreting the 2nd amendment. Not that my opinion counts any - Scalia doesn't consult me very often

And just an FYI for people here, IIRC most infantry don't carry fully automatic firearms. They carry whatever the latest version of the M-16 is, with the toggle going between safe, semi-auto, and three round burst. So when we talk about appropriateness to militias, full-auto shouldn't even enter the conversation.

Scalia isn't the one who needs our help in this matter, it's three or four other justices who might.

And I thought you might like this tid-bit:
St. Gabriel Possenti - the Patron Saint of Handgunners, for "Jesus said at the Last Supper, 'The one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.'" LINK

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[burbleflyer 0]

By Kennedy:

And just an FYI for people here, IIRC most infantry don't carry fully automatic firearms. They carry whatever the latest version of the M-16 is, with the toggle going between safe, semi-auto, and three round burst. So when we talk about appropriateness to militias, full-auto shouldn't even enter the conversation.

The military went to three round burst to make grunts conserve ammo.
I believe they have seen the error of their ways and are switching back to safe, semi, auto. There were a number of problems with the three round burst mode and it took away the ability for suppressive fire.
It basically didnt fix the problems it was supposed to and took away the best advantage.
Three round burst is still automatic fire.

[Kennedy 0]

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The military went to three round burst to make grunts conserve ammo. I believe they have seen the error of their ways and are switching back to safe, semi, auto. There were a number of problems with the three round burst mode and it took away the ability for suppressive fire. It basically didnt fix the problems it was supposed to and took away the best advantage.

Three round burst is still automatic fire.

I hadn't heard about the move back to auto, but I quesiton it. There's a reason for the BAR, the SAW, and their kind. You can't blame a firearm for failure to conserve ammo. It's just the difference of requiring ten sqeezes versus one long one.

Rat-tat-tat, Rat-tat-tat, Rat-tat-tat is just as scary as
Rat-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-ta-tat. (that is the purpose of supressive fire, to scare your enemy into hiding)

And by definition, automatic fire means that as long as the trigger is held/pressed and ammo is not exhausted, the gun will continue to fire. (I'm sure there's prettier wording, but that gets the point across) That's why you have to distinguish burst from full-auto.

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[Kennedy 0]

AUTOMATIC
A firearm designed to feed cartridges, fire them, eject their empty cases and repeat this cycle as long as the trigger is depressed and cartridges remain in the feed system.

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[kallend 2,148]

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I'm not sure which particular spat that was!

I was referring to our little tiff in posts 79-81, concerning this post of yours.

[/url]

Oh, OK, I didn't search that far along.

I approve that you don't consider me "average".

I would consider an assault weapon something capable of sustained fire with a single action on the part of the user. No idea how that pertains to the list in the "ban".

To reiterate, I can't see any reason a "regular civilian" would ever need such a thing, but if there is to be a REAL militia, then its members need appropriate weapons, not peashooters, AND they need to be properly trained.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

Let's hear it for kallend!

Yes, I just said that.

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I would consider an assault weapon something capable of sustained fire with a single action on the part of the user. No idea how that pertains to the list in the "ban".

One last time (yeah right, I wish) what is on the AWB list is semi automatics; one squeeze, one shot. What you're talking about is full-auto or burst, which is specially regulated and monitored by the ATF. This is why gun owners don't understand and are so vehemently against the AWB: it covers guns the function no differently from any other semi-auto. Read the text of the 1994 AWB, the Clinton-Feinstein one. It lists cosmetic features that make a firearm illegal. Yes. You read that right. Things like 'pistol grips' which make rifles easier to control for many shooters, or collapsible stocks, which allow and husband and wife, or any other shooters of different stature, to fire the same rifle; that's what they decided makes an assault weapon. Yet now they complain that companies are "exploiting loopholes" just because they designed the same firearms without those cosmetic features. Well if the same firearms without those cosmetic features are so horrible, then banning guns based on those features is pretty damned ridiculous, wouldn't you say?

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To reiterate, I can't see any reason a "regular civilian" would ever need such a thing, but if there is to be a REAL militia, then its members need appropriate weapons, not peashooters, AND they need to be properly trained.

Well, the authors of the Second Amendment (yes, those same guys who wrote the constitution and the rest of the bill of rights) said that "regular civilians" were to be the militia, and that they should not be denied arms.

As to the training part, well, the NRA's original mission in 1871 was to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis." The rest of the training took place as necessary with War Department/DOD liaisons.

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[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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actually here is the part where i DO agree with you. Despite their usefulness to a militia if required, fully automatic weapons provide far to much opportunity for a single individual to terminate the rights of others.

So does being a bus driver.

---Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Even if everyone had one under their coat for 'defense', the potential carnage from a single incident (as so well illustrated in the media and used to demonize and ban semiautos) with a fully automatic weapon is significant enough to the lives and rights of others that the government should make some effort to control them.

Actually, apart from the hollywood bank robbery -- during which the criminals with full auto weapons killed NOBODY -- I can't remember the last rampage that was seized upon by the media in which full-auto weapons were used.

I realize that you were saying that the media use fear of full auto to fuel fear of SEMI-auto, but usually it's some sheriff's deputy doing a DEMO of full auto fire, spliced into a segment about the renewal of the SEMI-AUTO "assault weapons" ban, that they use to do the fear-mongering. This is probably because actual rampages with full auto are not nearly as common as t.v. would have us think they are.

---Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[burbleflyer 0]

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AUTOMATIC
A firearm designed to feed cartridges, fire them, eject their empty cases and repeat this cycle as long as the trigger is depressed and cartridges remain in the feed system.

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From the ATF website:Machine gun. Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can
be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without
manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger . The term shall
also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and
intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun, and any
combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if such
parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/part179.pdf

[Kennedy 0]

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AUTOMATIC

From the ATF website:Machine gun

We were discussing full automatic fire, not the definition of machine gun. Has anyone ever told you you argue like a liberal?

Full auto and burst make a machine gun, but a machine gun does not make full auto and burst. The two are separate modes of fire.

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[Kennedy 0]

Your ATF Link

Read the definition on that page for Antique Firearm, of for that matter, read Firearm. You'll notice their definition differs greatly from what you and I would call a firearm. They are only interested in what falls into their jurisdiction.

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[Kennedy 0]

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I realize that you were saying that the media use fear of full auto to fuel fear of SEMI-auto, but usually it's some sheriff's deputy doing a DEMO of full auto fire, spliced into a segment about the renewal of the SEMI-AUTO "assault weapons" ban, that they use to do the fear-mongering.

You wouldn't be referring to the Broward County / CNN incident, now would you?

You know, the one where they used a full auto AK47 to disintegrate and cinderblock, and then used it's semi-auto cousin, which fires the exact same ammo, and said it didn't scratch the block. It could be because the sheriff (or was is a deputy) was firing into the ground with the semi-auto. Of course, they did this segment to cover the AWB which has nothing at all to do with full auto anyway.

Nah, that's not biased reporting. Doesn't even approach dishonesty, right?

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[kallend 2,148]

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I realize that you were saying that the media use fear of full auto to fuel fear of SEMI-auto, but usually it's some sheriff's deputy doing a DEMO of full auto fire, spliced into a segment about the renewal of the SEMI-AUTO "assault weapons" ban, that they use to do the fear-mongering.

You wouldn't be referring to the Broward County / CNN incident, now would you?

You know, the one where they used a full auto AK47 to disintegrate and cinderblock, and then used it's semi-auto cousin, which fires the exact same ammo, and said it didn't scratch the block. It could be because the sheriff (or was is a deputy) was firing into the ground with the semi-auto. Of course, they did this segment to cover the AWB which has nothing at all to do with full auto anyway.

Nah, that's not biased reporting. Doesn't even approach dishonesty, right?

Was this NBC, the outfit that used model rocket motors to ignite the truck fuel tank to prove how dangerous the truck was?

Of course, BATFE now has it in for hobby rocket motors - more than 2 oz of propellant and you need a FBI background check (including fingerprinting)!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Kennedy 0]

I'm fairly sure it was CNN with the AK incident, but it doesn't surprise me what you're telling me about NBC. And people wonder why I love the media so.

Sucks when the government fucks with your hobbies because they might be dangerous if misused. Innocent until proven guilty? Yeah, once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away, in the Autumn mist in Honalee....

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[JohnRich 4]

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"Jesus said at the Last Supper, 'The one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.'"

Yep, a lot of people seem to think Jesus was a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist, who if he was alive today, would be against civilian gun ownership. They also think that killing in self-defense is wrong.

Well, the original commandment didn't say "Thou shalt not kill", it said; "Thou shalt not commit murder". This suggests that some killing is justifiable, such as in self-defense, and is supported as a religious principle.

I think these biblical quotes show what Jesus would think of such issues today:

Luke:11:21-22
"When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils."

Luke:22:36
"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Luke:22:52
"Jesus said unto the chief priests, and captains of the temple, and the elders, which were come to him, Be ye come out, as against a thief, with swords and staves?"

Exodus:22:2
"If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him."

Proverbs 25:26
"A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring."

Psalm 143:12
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant."

Psalm 144:1
"Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight."

Psalm 144:6
"Cast forth lightning, and scatter them: shoot out thine arrows, and destroy them."

Psalm 149:6
"Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two edged sword in their hand."

I Samuel 13:19-22 (weapons ban allowing Phillistines to defeat Jews)
"Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Phillistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears... So it came to pass in the day of battle, that there was neither sword nor spear found in the hand of any of the people that were with Saul and Jonathon."

I Samuel 25:13
"And David said unto his men, Gird ye on every man his sword. And they girded on every man his sword: and David also girded on his sword..."

Numbers 31:3
"And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war..."

Ephesians 6:11
"Put on the full armour of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes".

Nehemiah 4:14-18
"Be not ye afraid of them... fight for your brethren, your sons, and your daughters, your wives, and your houses... And it came to pass from that time forth, that the half of my sevants wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons... They which which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon. For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded."

Matthew 26:55
"At that time Jesus said to the multitudes, "Have you come out with swords and clubs to arrest me as against a robber? Every day I used to sit in the temple teaching and you did not seize me."

(Note the implication by Jesus that it would be appropriate to confront a criminal with swords and clubs - the weapons that were available to the common man at the time.)

John 18:10
"then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priests servant, and cut off his right ear."

John 18:1-12
(Describes the use of a concealed sword by one of Jesus' bodyguards to protect him from arrest and certain death when they came with Judas to capture him.)

Ecclesiastes 3:1-3
"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill..."

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If Jesus were alive today, I think he would be pro-gun and pro-self-defense!

[JohnRich 4]

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The military went to three round burst to make grunts conserve ammo.

Only partially. Also because accurate fire cannot be delivered on full-auto. Anything but the first few rounds end up high due to a climbing muzzle.

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There were a number of problems with the three round burst mode and it took away the ability for suppressive fire.

Aimed fire is better for producing hits on the enemy. However, there are also times when suppressive fire is needed, to make the enemy to keep his head down.

The SAW is currently used for suppressive fire. It's basically an M-16 on steriods, set up for full auto fire.

Back in my military days (1970's), one member of a fire team would carry the BAR to deliver the automatic fire, while the others had M14's for aimed fire.

[JohnRich 4]

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I would consider an assault weapon something capable of sustained fire with a single action on the part of the user. No idea how that pertains to the list in the "ban".

Well whaddaya know, we finally dragged it out of you.

What you describe is full-auto firearms, or machine guns.

What the so-called "assault-weapon" ban is about is just semi-auto firearms, with certain cosmetic features that make them look like military rifles.

You've been hoodwinked into a false belief about that law. How does it feel to be misinformed by the anti-gun groups and the mass media?

Now that you know the truth, are you opposed to renewing the so-called "assault weapon" ban, which really only banned folding stocks, flash suppressors and bayonet lugs?

[kallend 2,148]

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"Jesus said at the Last Supper, 'The one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one.'"

Yep, a lot of people seem to think Jesus was a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist, who if he was alive today, would be against civilian gun ownership. They also think that killing in self-defense is wrong.

Well, the original commandment didn't say "Thou shalt not kill", it said; "Thou shalt not commit murder". This suggests that some killing is justifiable, such as in self-defense, and is supported as a religious principle.

I think these biblical quotes show what Jesus would think of such issues today:

You omitted:

Matthew 5, 5
Matthew 5, 7
Matthew 5, 38-39
Matthew 5, 43-44
Matthew 6, 14-15
Matthew 7, 1-5
Matthew 7, 28-29

Cherry picking again?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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Machine gun... The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed
and intended solely and exclusively... for use in converting a weapon into a machine gun...

And the ATF does some goofy stuff with this definition. For example, if you happen to possess a certain part that could be used to convert a firearm into a machinegun, but you don't have the remainder of the firearm that it fits into, you can still go to prison for 10 years. You don't have to actually possess a working machinegun to be guilty. The ATF considers things as simple as certain springs to be "machine guns", according to this definition.

[JohnRich 4]

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Was this NBC, the outfit that used model rocket motors to ignite the truck fuel tank to prove how dangerous the truck was?

Nope, this particular infamous fraud was committed by CNN.

Washington Times

And people wonder why gun owners are cynical about the mass media organizations...

[kallend 2,148]

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Was this NBC, the outfit that used model rocket motors to ignite the truck fuel tank to prove how dangerous the truck was?

Nope, this particular infamous fraud was committed by CNN.

Washington Times

And people wonder why gun owners are cynical about the mass media organizations...

GMC truck owners too?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnRich 4]

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You omitted:

Matthew 5, 5
Matthew 5, 7
Matthew 5, 38-39
Matthew 5, 43-44
Matthew 6, 14-15
Matthew 7, 1-5
Matthew 7, 28-29

5:5 - There is nothing in the definition of "meek" that would preclude one from owning a gun or using it in self defense.

5:7 - Being "merciful" does not mean letting some criminal kill or harm you or your family. If I pull my gun out in self defense, and the criminal stops his attack, and runs the other way, then he'll get "mercy" by escaping without being shot.

5:38 - The "eye for an eye" philosophy seems to apply to using deadly force with a firearm in defense against a deadly attack by a criminal.

5:43 - "love thy neighbor and hate thy enemy". No problem. Criminals are the enemy.

5:44 - "love your enemies". That kind of contradicts the previous sentence, don't you think so?

6:14-15 - "forgiving trespasses". Okay with me, after they've served their jail time.

7:1-5 - "Judge not lest ye be judged". So we should let all the criminals go without punishment, and empty the prisons?

7:28-29 - I don't see any relevance...

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If you offered those quotes as counters to what I provided, I would say that they fail miserably to prove anything to the contrary.

Oh, and it was really ironic how you accused me of "cherry picking", and then turned around and did the same thing in reply. That's one of those pot-kettle, goose-gander things.

And how about providing an answer to my previous question:

"Now that you know the truth, are you opposed to renewing the so-called "assault weapon" ban, which really only banned folding stocks, flash suppressors and bayonet lugs?"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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[You wouldn't be referring to the Broward County / CNN incident, now would you?

You know, the one where they used a full auto AK47 to disintegrate and cinderblock, and then used it's semi-auto cousin, which fires the exact same ammo, and said it didn't scratch the block. It could be because the sheriff (or was is a deputy) was firing into the ground with the semi-auto. Of course, they did this segment to cover the AWB which has nothing at all to do with full auto anyway.

Nah, that's not biased reporting. Doesn't even approach dishonesty, right?

Was this NBC, the outfit that used model rocket motors to ignite the truck fuel tank to prove how dangerous the truck was?

Of course, BATFE now has it in for hobby rocket motors - more than 2 oz of propellant and you need a FBI background check (including fingerprinting)!

[Kennedy 0]

What on God's Green Earth is an "Assault Pistol?"

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