President Bush admits intelligence error

[Guest]

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>the intelligence apparatus was 'humbugged' by Saddam's ELINT disinformation campaign . . .

I love it! It was Saddam's fault that our intelligence failed! Perhaps you could blame him for the deficit too.

Intelligence is supposed to work even when people try to mess with it. Counterintelligence has been around for as long as intelligence. If dictators can totally destroy our ability to get good intel we're pretty much doomed.

Having been in the intel biz on the periphery wrt the military and actively involved in the case of federal law enforecement I can say that although it's very easy to count machinery and manpower (and easy to spoof - please read Sun-Tzu) it's very, very tough to accurately learn INTENTIONS.

Here is a simple, fictitious example. Disabusing the role of the US as world-cop, what if a telephone operator accidentally overheard a conversation between some of those dreaded "militia" types about the posession or development of stuff they had no business playing with, e.g., explosives.

The intel goes up the chain, and winds up in the hands of the BATF, which decides that a felony is involved and gets a no-knock warrant.

So they crash the party, and shoot those who resist, only to find that the people in the conversation made it up, either to impress themselves or others.

However, other minor offenses are uncovered (home-made silencers [technically a tax violation]), etc. In addition, solid evidence of child abuse is uncovered.

Did the militia whackos get their just desserts? Were the officials who ordered the action lying because explosives were never found, or did they act in good faith?

edit for spelling

mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Ron 10]

You still don't have his intel...you might be smarter...But if you have bad info...you will make bad choices.

GIGO.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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You're right, I haven't served in the military. If I was drafted, well, if it was for the Iraq war (or the Iraq battle of the War on Terrorism if you prefer) I'd have to declare conscientious objector status. Not that I'd never go to war, in a heartbeat I would, if I truly felt that this nation, my loved ones, or even another nation which I hold dear was threatened. I simply don't feel that Iraq fulfilled this test.

I doubt you would go anyway. You would hide in school.

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I truly believe that this man has no inclination whatsoever to do what is best for this country or if so, is completely misguided as to what is best for this country.

And I think he does...so we will vote on it huh?

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Gore served too
Kerry served too
Clark served too
What do you have against these men Ron? They pass your test of military service, all three were on the ground in Nam, 2 saw combat and were awarded medals for the heroism in combat.

Show me ONE post where I have said anything against these men? ONE!!!! Simple, you will not find any.

See you think you know me, but you don't. I make bad choices based of bad info...But I don't make shit up. I wait and look for facts before I open my mouth.

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No we don't know that he knew but we know that he and his cronies said that they had these weapons ready to go and they knew where they were. If they're not there now, seems to me that they'd be a hell of a lot more concerned with where they are if they ever were.

Bad intel equal bad choices....You don't KNOW he lied...I don't know he DIDN't I wait for proof before saying he lied.

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Well, considering the administration uses any and all means to avoid being questioned "under oath" about what they did or did not know about WMD, 9/11, etc, not just whether or not they got BJs, we may never have any proof. But, just like they say about those WMD, just because we don't have proof, doesn't mean it didn't happen

And its not over yet is it? We may find some, we may find out our intel community was stupid, or we may find someone lied...THEN I will want someones head to roll...Not before. And I will not just pick Bush to be the scapegoat...


You seem to just want his head.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[benny 0]

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I doubt you would go anyway. You would hide in school.

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See you think you know me, but you don't.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[Ron 10]

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No I don't, I do have a perception to go on. His record as governor and the death penalty for one. Secondly, he sent his country into war based on questionable intelligence. (I'll leave it at that, I think he went to war to make money, but that is beside the point) He is not afraid to get people to kill for him or in his name.

I am for the death penalty....I was in the Army..I didn't have to kill anyone, and I would rather not have to...I would if I had to, but I was never asked to.

Is it so hard for you to even think he just got fed bad intel? Like a computer...GIGO. Garbage in, Garbage out. If he had bad intel he would make bad choices...And we don't have all the information he did have. I'm not going to call fo his head on a stick til I KNOW he did something wrong.

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He is not afraid to get people to kill for him or in his name.

FOR HIS NAME?!?!?!? What the fuck is that?

Last time I checked they were fighting for the US not GWB. The oath I took did'nt say kill on command to make someone look good. It said to fight to defend the US.

Sending people to fight for the US is not about your name...Besides the press has been bad, so if I were going to try to be a popular prez...I would not send folks to fight.

Duh!

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It is interesting that he has that attitude, eventhough he made as sure as possible that he himself would never have to kill anyone

Im pro gun, pro death penalty, pro war on terroism...But I have not had to kill anyone...Does that mean Im a bad person since I have not taken a life with my own hands for my beliefs?

I was in the Army..they never asked me to kill. I would have if called.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I get from you that you think he should be allowed to do whatever he wants until someone proves he was wrong.

Nope, but Im not going to say bull shit like he lied...When I have no proof.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Ron, did you give Clinton the benefit of the doubt with regards to, well, anything?

Yep, I din't call him a liar till it was proven. I didn't consider him to be without morals till he proved it.

Notice I don't slam his economic policies? Some of them were good.

but you don't seem to be able to do the same for anyone.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Remster 30]

Who the hell got Ron into a political thread again!

Remster

[benny 0]

Ron, I can give people the benefit of the doubt, but when the folks GWB has surrounded himself with and has mold his foreign policy are the "Project for the New American Century" it's clear and easy to see that they had the intention of invading Iraq long before Bush ever got in office and were just waiting for their chance.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>Refusing to investigate is allowing criminals to get away with a crime.

Agreed. Plamegate comes to mind.

If there was a crime committed, whomever broke the law needs to be punished.

[Ron 10]

From that same website

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Critics of the war and the administration have been quick to use Kay's statements as evidence that the White House jury-rigged intelligence estimates to support its policy of getting rid of Hussein, and hyped what intelligence there was on Iraq's programs. (Thats you Benny)

But the Bush administration relied on virtually the same intelligence estimates that the Clinton administration used during the U.N.-inspection crisis in late 1997. As far as hype goes, it would be hard for anyone to beat then-Defense Secretary William S. Cohen's appearance on national television, holding up a five-pound sack of sugar and announcing that a similar amount of Iraqi produced anthrax was enough to kill half the population of Washington.

So, who is at fault? Right now, it looks like U.S. intelligence simply didn't do its job.
(So that would be bad intel right)

Not that the job was easy; Iraq was a virtual police state, and Hussein was adept at uncovering plots against him and hiding his own plans. Remember, after the 1991 Persian Gulf War, we were surprised to discover that Iraq's nuclear weapons program was just months from producing a bomb -- not the five to 10 years that U.S. intelligence had thought. The reality is we had no high-level Iraqi spies who could tell us what was going on; moreover, Hussein appears to have been good at feeding false information through double agents and our high-tech collection systems. With no new information of note, it is no surprise that the analytic side of the intelligence community -- a bureaucracy like any bureaucracy, with its own inertia -- didn't change what it thought about these programs from what it had learned in the early 1990s.

So is it possible he just had bad intel?

But then again thats not as fun as bashing him is it?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>Is it so hard for you to even think he just got fed bad intel?

A year ago when I suggested that the UN arms inspectors in Iraq knew more about Saddam's WMD programs than US CIA agents who have never been there, I got slammed by the righties. "We've got the best intelligence in the world! Certainly better than the UN. What, you actually think he destroyed all those WMD's? What are you, stupid?" Fastest 180 I've seen in a while.

[Ron 10]

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A year ago when I suggested that the UN arms inspectors in Iraq knew more about Saddam's WMD programs than US CIA agents who have never been there, I got slammed by the righties. "We've got the best intelligence in the world! Certainly better than the UN. What, you actually think he destroyed all those WMD's? What are you, stupid?" Fastest 180 I've seen in a while.

Then we were wrong....See its not hard to admit you are wrong...You should give it a try sometime Bill.

If there are no WMD's in Iraq...Then I was wrong to believe the Intel community and our President.

But like I have said, he has better intel than me..Im not getting hourly reports from the CIA, NSA, FBI...and other alphabet companies.

He is, last I check you are not either.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Amazon 7]

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As opposed to Clinton just flat out dogging the draft.

Gee I don't see his name anywhere on any ticket.. can he run again.. I would vote for him.. more people had real jobs and few of them were worried about losing them. He did not send 150,000 of our kids off to the middle east in an ill advised exercise in adventurism and corporate greed.

He stayed in college like so many others did.. others got out of going by other means. It was the times.. and they have a changed as the song said.

He lied about getting a blow job and as much as men on the Ultra Right despise guys who are actually good with women.. its not quite as serious as lieing to the entire world and getting hundreds of our fellow americans killed with lies and deception. But Good old George has always had a problem with the truth.. this is nothing new.

[benny 0]

Well Ron, the really interesting thing about that site, other than the attempts to explain away criticism of their views, are the fact that they had them so far back (check the stuff from 1998) and that they reached such vastly different conclusions (in opposition to the Clinton admin) as to what should be done. I think it's very possible that the intel wasn't so good. However, it's been pointed out before that intel is an art, not a science. And it's not the CIA or the military's job to develop policy based on intel, no that responsibility falls mainly on the executive branch, of which Bush is head. Therefore, ultimately, bad intel or not, the responsibility rests with him.

Never go to a DZ strip show.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Is it so hard for you to even think he just got fed bad intel? Like a computer...GIGO. Garbage in, Garbage out. If he had bad intel he would make bad choices...And we don't have all the information he did have. I'm not going to call fo his head on a stick til I KNOW he did something wrong.

So, how about the part where they told him that his intelligence on the purchase of nuclear materials was completely wrong, yet he still used it in his state of the union address? What do you call that?

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Last time I checked they were fighting for the US not GWB. The oath I took did'nt say kill on command to make someone look good. It said to fight to defend the US.

And he is the CIC is he not?

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Im pro gun, pro death penalty, pro war on terroism...But I have not had to kill anyone...Does that mean Im a bad person since I have not taken a life with my own hands for my beliefs?

Did you spend your time in the military trying to get as far as remotely possible from any type of active duty? Or you were just never asked to serve in active duty? There is a big difference there, to me anyways.

[Gravitymaster 0]

At this point, I really don't care whether SH had WMDs or not. I wish our intel. had been better. I think the lefties feeble attempt blaming GWB for lying and lately at self-aggrandizing is extremely petty.
SH is gone and the world is a better and safer place because of the actions of GWB. If there were intel problems, we need to fix them and move on.

[Ron 10]

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He did not send 150,000 of our kids off to the middle east in an ill advised exercise in adventurism and corporate greed

Again lefty..PROVE that he sent them for adventurism and greed.

You can't. You just like saying it.

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He stayed in college like so many others did.. others got out of going by other means. It was the times.. and they have a changed as the song said.

why don't you take this same tone with Bush then...It was that way back then???? Its called a double standard, and lady..you are full of them.

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He lied about getting a blow job and as much as men on the Ultra Right despise guys who are actually good with women..

For your info, I got a BJ Saturday. But I didn't lie about it under oath.

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its not quite as serious as lieing to the entire world and getting hundreds of our fellow americans killed with lies and deception

Again PROVE he lied...not just throw up smoke and mirrors...As soon as you SHOW PROOF, and not just lie...We can talk. Until then you are just a lefty crying since you didn't get your way.

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But Good old George has always had a problem with the truth..

A Clinton hugger saying that?????!?!?!? THATS IRONY folks.....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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So, how about the part where they told him that his intelligence on the purchase of nuclear materials was completely wrong, yet he still used it in his state of the union address? What do you call that?

Ya got proof? With dates and other cool stuff?

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And he is the CIC is he not?

I swore to up hold the Lawful orders of the CIC and the officers above me....So far he is legal.

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Did you spend your time in the military trying to get as far as remotely possible from any type of active duty? Or you were just never asked to serve in active duty? There is a big difference there, to me anyways

I was active...3 years 82 Airborne. In the Infantry. I was never called to fight. I was locked and loaded, but the trigger was never pulled. And this was under Bush Jr. So much for the war monger huh?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,116]

>At this point, I really don't care whether SH had WMDs or not.

The rest of the world does. When you thousands of innocent people, and it turns out you were wrong about the reasons you did so, people often care.

"We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories." - Bush

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." - Rumsfeld


>SH is gone and the world is a better and safer place because of the
> actions of GWB.

??? Terrorist attacks are up. US government buildings are being attacked with chemical and biological weapons. Al Qaeda is more active now than they were a year ago. A US soldier a day is dying in Iraq. If that's your definition of better and safer, I pray they don't get any better or any safer. We don't have the soldiers to spare.

>If there were intel problems, we need to fix them and move on.

Agreed there. We find out where the problem originated (or who it originated from) fix the problem or replace the person and move on. The problem may lie at the CIA or at a higher level. Time will tell.

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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Ya got proof? With dates and other cool stuff?

You know what, this has been discussed quite a few times before. It is a little rediculous to have discussion where to only counter argument is: get me some proof. If you want to forget certain details to feel better about Bush, it really doesn't affect me. Personally, I like to live in reality.

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I swore to up hold the Lawful orders of the CIC and the officers above me....So far he is legal.

So far it was not an unlawful order. Like I stated before, I think that a call to war has a higher burdon of proof than normal affairs.

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And this was under Bush Jr. So much for the war monger huh?

That statement just doesn't make any sense.

[kallend 2,148]

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At this point, I really don't care whether SH had WMDs or not. I wish our intel. had been better. I think the lefties feeble attempt blaming GWB for lying and lately at self-aggrandizing is extremely petty.
SH is gone and the world is a better and safer place because of the actions of GWB. If there were intel problems, we need to fix them and move on.

And the buck stops.... on the desk in the Oval Office.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 10]

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You know what, this has been discussed quite a few times before. It is a little rediculous to have discussion where to only counter argument is: get me some proof. If you want to forget certain details to feel better about Bush, it really doesn't affect me. Personally, I like to live in reality.

And if you are not willing to show PROOF, I would rather just assume you are lying.

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So far it was not an unlawful order. Like I stated before, I think that a call to war has a higher burdon of proof than normal affairs.

Why? Im sure this was not a snap choice, and Im willing to bet he didn't throw dice or trust a Magic 8 ball.

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That statement just doesn't make any sense.

People are calling Bush Jr a war monger...But I didn't go more times than I did.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[SkyDekker 1,465]

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And if you are not willing to show PROOF, I would rather just assume you are lying.

Funny, you have a different standard for President Bush. You seem to be quite happy with believing him without proof.

Funny thing is, he sent thousands of people to their graves. I am just having a discussion with you.

[benny 0]

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And if you are not willing to show PROOF, I would rather just assume you are lying.

So what you're saying is that all that talk about the benefit of the doubt was just BS? I mean, you'd rather assume he's lying even though you can't prove it huh Ron?

Never go to a DZ strip show.