BikerBabe 0 #26 February 17, 2004 His plan for ANWR was just a symbol of the anti-environmental policies of the administration. Look who he chose for Secretary of the Interior. Look who he fired as EPA chair when she stopped toeing the party line of blatant hatred for anything other than big oil or other large commercial interests. You're seeing it near where you live because it's his national policy. As for ANWR...there's some oil there, true, but not enough to end our dependence on OPEC by far, and we wouldn't see it for at least another 10 years. Short term gains at the expense of long-term intelligence seems to be the hallmark of everything this administration does.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #27 February 17, 2004 What are the signs of the apocalypse again? .witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #28 February 17, 2004 QuoteWhat are the signs of the apocalypse again? . Any horsemen around? Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #29 February 17, 2004 'scuse me, but I live in Alabama so "just this side of the Rockies" is hardly my backyard. ANWR: it's just when you do a serious gain/loss comparison, I'm not seeing the loss-side outweighing the gain. QuoteShort term gains at the expense of long-term intelligence seems to be the hallmark of everything this administration does. Vote democrat last election? witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #30 February 17, 2004 Quote'scuse me, but I live in Alabama so "just this side of the Rockies" is hardly my backyard. ANWR: it's just when you do a serious gain/loss comparison, I'm not seeing the loss-side outweighing the gain. QuoteShort term gains at the expense of long-term intelligence seems to be the hallmark of everything this administration does. Vote democrat last election? Shew, I was worried there for a minute. Everyone relax and go about your business, Apocalyptic false alarm. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #31 February 17, 2004 How'd you know? I guess on ANWR, it depends on how much value you place on the things in the "loss" column. I see the loss of a pristine wilderness and habitat for countless species as a loss that far outweighs any potential gains (which are questionable in my mind, anyway). I'd much rather spend all the money that would be dedicated to opening/drilling the ANWR on developing renewable sources of energy that could become available to the general public at a lower cost than they are now. In other words, I prefer the long-term solution to our dependence on foreign oil. Call me what you will, but the standout issue and the reason I could never vote for Bush is his stance (or lack thereof) on the environment. Everyone has a hot button, this is mine, and I freely admit it.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #32 February 17, 2004 Quote The facts: ... FDR led us into World War II. Germany never attacked us: Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost, an average of 112,500 per year. Since this guy is so keen on facts, how come he doesn't know that Japan, a member of the Axis Powers, attacked the USA on 12/7/1941, and that Hitler declared war on the USA in a speech to the Reichstag less than a week later. The USA did NOT declare war on Germany. I just love people whose version of history comes from watching TV and movies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #33 February 17, 2004 And lets not forget the US registered merchant ships being sunk by the submarine wolf packs in the N. Atlantic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #34 February 17, 2004 I think that until we can develop another resource that will eliminate our reliance on petroleum, we oughtta be concerned with eliminating our reliance on foreign petroleum. We will rely on petroleum for at least another 20 years. This is assuming that a viable alternative exists in a short amount of time. This is due to the long period of time it would take to phase out petroleum-dependant products, such as vehicles, appliances, factory machinery, the plastics inductry, etc. Until it is phased out, I'll look at the human cost over nature's costs. With all the wars and revolutions over oil in the Middle East these past 50 years or so, I weigh the balance of damage to the permafrost as better than the damage to humankind. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #35 February 17, 2004 QuoteI think that until we can develop another resource that will eliminate our reliance on petroleum, we oughtta be concerned with eliminating our reliance on foreign petroleum. I think her point is that the resources we would put towards developing the oilfields in ANWR would be better spent in funding for researching alternative energy sources. ANWR isn't going to produce enough for us to be able to disengage with the middle east anyway. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,111 #36 February 17, 2004 >We will rely on petroleum for at least another 20 years. This is > assuming that a viable alternative exists in a short amount of time. It exists now. With $100 billion (the cost of another war) we could move to efficient gasoline engines, natural gas and biodiesel quickly. Within 5 years we could eliminate our dependence on Middle Eastern oil. >This is due to the long period of time it would take to phase out > petroleum-dependant products, such as vehicles . . Gasoline hybrid, natural gas, flexible fuel, and diesel vehicles exist now. >appliances . . . Major heating appliances are currently available in electric, natural gas or fuel oil versions. >factory machinery . . . 99% electric except for process heat, which again can be electric, natural gas, or fuel oil. >the plastics inductry . . The big one; you need oil to make plastics. Fortunately, only a small fraction of our current oil supply goes to making plastics, and that demand could easily come from domestic sources. > . . I weigh the balance of damage to the permafrost as better than > the damage to humankind. If the US made the commitement to reduce demand and get ourselves off foreign oil, I'd be all for drilling ANWR. Without that commitement, ANWR won't even cover the INCREASE in oil we use by the time it's online. Drill ANWR _and_ become more dependent on Iraqi oil? No thanks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,587 #37 February 17, 2004 I'm with Billvon; he's right on. (there -- now you can copy and paste that into your sig line ). And I do. The ANWR is really really big and really really empty. We want to keep it that way as much as possible, yes. But is it less impact than drilling in the Gulf? The environmental impact, as far as I can tell, of drilling can be somewhat significant (disruption while they're doing it), but the impact of a wellhead and pipeline is really small. Look at the footprint. Really. The servicing required isn't much either. But if we just use that as an excuse to keep buying SUV's, then no way. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #38 February 17, 2004 Yes, and I agree there. I am just in favor of a more balanced approach. BTW, how much foreign oil are we using in Iraq and the Middle East? My guess is we use oodles of it. My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RyanofOZ 0 #39 February 17, 2004 Right on brutha!Oz Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dougjumper 0 #40 February 17, 2004 Most young Puppies now Days were not born early enough to know what a Bad President is apparently. We got it too good these days...Time of the internet.. Electronic devices and such..havent had another Time in US History like the Great Depression Where we all might Stand in line just to get a Cup of Soup...America for some might hit a Brick Wall someday and Swallow some of their Pride realize the Luxurys we have here and Quit Bitchin. Enjoy what life we have..Rather you like the President or not thats called Freedom of Democracy..Pray for Him do the right thing. If you dont have anything good to say then keep your Damn Trap Shut. .[Not a Personal attack by any means just something we should all think about] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #41 February 17, 2004 QuoteIf you dont have anything good to say then keep your Damn Trap Shut keeping the dialogue and ideas flowing is a way to insure that it never gets that bad again, that's how democracy works Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BikerBabe 0 #42 February 17, 2004 QuoteI weigh the balance of damage to the permafrost as better than the damage to humankind. And I weigh the cost of damage to the permafrost AS damage to humankind. Because I think in the long run humankind is better off having places like ANWR than having two SUV's in every driveway. QuoteUntil it is phased out, I'll look at the human cost over nature's costs. Unfortunately, if we keep looking at it that way, we'll be caught off guard when we no longer have a choice. Besides, it's not REALLY a choice. In the long run, nature's costs ARE human costs.Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdweller 0 #43 February 17, 2004 > Hitler declared war on the USA in a speech to the Reichstag less than a week later < Yea, but he did so in German, so it didn't really count------------------------------------------------------ "From the mightiest pharaoh to the lowliest peasant, who doesn't enjoy a good sit?" C. Montgomery Burns Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #44 February 17, 2004 Quotekeeping the dialogue and ideas flowing is a way to insure that it never gets that bad again, that's how democracy works Also, the poorer you are, the more you look at basic human needs - food and shelter, etc. The more money and "luxury" you have, the more outward and big picture and giving toward humanity as a whole you look. Unless you're full of greed and vanity. Bush and Atkins are the devil. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #45 February 17, 2004 Quoteand that Hitler declared war on the USA in a speech to the Reichstag less than a week later. The USA did NOT declare war on Germany. I just love people whose version of history comes from watching TV and movies. Um, Kallend, maybe you'll remember that FDR was doing everything he could to provoke war with Germany. From issuing ridiculous edicts demanding Germany respect US ships carrying war materiel to those innocent little merchant ships were carrying the "arsenal of democracy" He just couldn't get congress to declare war on Germany until after they announced agaisnt us.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #46 February 17, 2004 QuoteBush and Atkins are the devil. Now even I don't agree with this, Bush tries to curtail way too many fun "evil" things to be the devil. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflybella 0 #47 February 17, 2004 QuoteBush tries to curtail way too many fun "evil" things to be the devil. *** Now THERE'S a good debate. Does the "Devil" stand for all that's 'fun and evil' in life? And if so, does that mean that "God" is boring?!!!! Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites benny 0 #48 February 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteBush tries to curtail way too many fun "evil" things to be the devil. *** Now THERE'S a good debate. Does the "Devil" stand for all that's 'fun and evil' in life? And if so, does that mean that "God" is boring?!!!! It's like Al Pacino's line in The Devil's Advocate about god being a sadist.... "look, but don't touch...." Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #49 February 17, 2004 I agree. I look at it like knee surgery in the 60's - we could have quit doing them and put all our research money into something like arthroscopy. Maybe the techniques would be 10 times better today had we quit the idea of a radical surgery. There is a human cost today to those people who had the surgery, but most are glad they did it. There is nothing in this world that does not cost something. Sure, there are plenty of gas guzzling vehicles on the road. Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites benny 0 #50 February 17, 2004 Quote Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? Maybe because in a lot of cases industry is not offering. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
benny 0 #48 February 17, 2004 QuoteQuoteBush tries to curtail way too many fun "evil" things to be the devil. *** Now THERE'S a good debate. Does the "Devil" stand for all that's 'fun and evil' in life? And if so, does that mean that "God" is boring?!!!! It's like Al Pacino's line in The Devil's Advocate about god being a sadist.... "look, but don't touch...." Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lawrocket 3 #49 February 17, 2004 I agree. I look at it like knee surgery in the 60's - we could have quit doing them and put all our research money into something like arthroscopy. Maybe the techniques would be 10 times better today had we quit the idea of a radical surgery. There is a human cost today to those people who had the surgery, but most are glad they did it. There is nothing in this world that does not cost something. Sure, there are plenty of gas guzzling vehicles on the road. Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites benny 0 #50 February 17, 2004 Quote Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? Maybe because in a lot of cases industry is not offering. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
lawrocket 3 #49 February 17, 2004 I agree. I look at it like knee surgery in the 60's - we could have quit doing them and put all our research money into something like arthroscopy. Maybe the techniques would be 10 times better today had we quit the idea of a radical surgery. There is a human cost today to those people who had the surgery, but most are glad they did it. There is nothing in this world that does not cost something. Sure, there are plenty of gas guzzling vehicles on the road. Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #50 February 17, 2004 Quote Bill made a great post. He pointed out things about the technologies already available. Why is the American public not buying? Maybe because in a lot of cases industry is not offering. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
