Correct, I have no problem with companies doing business in Canada instead of here. They don't have an unfair advantage competing with US employers. My problem is with US based companies, with US based customers, using cheap labor in 3rd world countries.
QuotePay attention next time your driving on the highway
and count how many 18 wheelers you see from canada, running our highways and hauling loads that Americans trucks should be hauling, and a lot of them are going to mexico, canada to mexico hauled by trucks from canada,and then loads back to canada.
FUCK NAFTA!
And they drive like shit too.....
as an ex-trucker and canadian who still has a number of friends running south of the border, i'm offended by the last line in your post. as a blanket statement, it's unfounded and i bet you couldn't back it up with any recognized statistics.
yes, there are a lot of canadian trucks running in the states, but they pay tax for every mile they run in every state they travel through, the same taxes american trucks pay. they aren't out there cruising around for the fun of it, they are hauling canadian goods to market in the states, and american goods back. they aren't hauling point to point in the states, and therefore aren't taking any more work away from american truckers than what american truckers are taking from canadians when they haul goods north.
that said, it's true that an american truck could do the same work, but that wouldn't mean any less trucks or less wear and tear on the roads. if you want to be picky about it and say that all loads in the states should be hauled by american trucks, then write your congressman or whoever and tell them to close the border. our government would probably do the same and then nobody wins.
"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001
QuoteAnd they drive like shit too.....
I sure haven't driven in every US state, but I do believe that the good citizens of Colorado (most of whom are not CO natives) are some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. In fact while traveling to the mid-west last summer (to attend the WFFC), I couldn't help but notice that the drivers there are better than here in Colorado. Of course this comment has nothing to do with NAFTA.
For some reason, many Colorado drivers feel it is their God given right to drive in the left hand lane no matter how fast (or how slow) they are traveling. So you get this long line of cars occupying the left hand lanes (the passing lane) while a sporatic line of cars are seen in the right hand lane. And I just didn't experience this problem in the mid-west last summer. So who are the bad drivers?
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Remster 30
Quotetheir God given right to drive in the left hand lane no matter how fast (or how slow) they are traveling
Dont try Alberta then! lmao This had this montreal fuming! lol
Remster
QuoteDont try Alberta then! lmao This had this montreal fuming! lol
It's worse here. Of course Montreal drivers are kind of crazy to begin with.
But I'd like to not try and hijack this thread as I am curious as to how some people feel about NAFTA.Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
Lee03 0
Nope. I never have!
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To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities.
--Nevil Shute, Slide Rule
To put your life in danger from time to time ... breeds a saneness in dealing with day-to-day trivialities.
--Nevil Shute, Slide Rule
QuoteI'm sure you have some negative issues with Canada, but it appears that it's more of a Mexico thing?
Yes, I'm not familiar with many manufacturing corporations moving their plants to Canada to exploit cheap labor.
And for that matter I have no problems with either countries themselfs. I think that both countries are great places. My only problem is with the inbalanced trade deficit the loss of the US jobs that belong here.
I travel the land, Work in the ocean, Play in the sky
QuoteQuoteDont try Alberta then! lmao This had this montreal fuming! lol
It's worse here. Of course Montreal drivers are kind of crazy to begin with.
after a couple of years of running down the metropolitan with a truck i dicovered something that surprised me. the drivers aren't crazy, or bad, they are just very spirited. give 'em a car length (or anything approximating it) and they'll try to stuff a car in it. despite horrid road design, there are relatively few accidents. everyone is just in a hurry and since an accident would slow them down, they try not to have them.
"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001
QuoteI have no problems with either countries themselfs. I think that both countries are great places. My only problem is with the inbalanced trade deficit the loss of the US jobs that belong here.
You've also got to realize why I stepped into this thread to begin with. If it wasn't for NAFTA, I would still be up in Canada (living and working) and likely would not be a skydiver.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over
jaaska 0
Quote
Jobs with an education level of high school:
Entry level. Call center jobs are moving overseas. .
Is this true? Interesting... To where are they moved? (overseas - but where?)
PeteH 0
QuoteFree trade is wonderful in theory, but generally sucks ass in reality.
Why does it suck in reality?
If somebody does the same job cheaper, what's the reason to pay somebody else more?
I pay a lot of taxes because Finnish government wants to keep Finnish farmers busy. Some of 'em even get paid to do nothing.
If you can't compete in free market, you need to do something else.
Remster 30
QuoteIs this true? Interesting... To where are they moved? (overseas - but where?)
Lots of call centers are being set up in India (thats a big one), Ireland (Nova Scotia but thats not overseas to me)
EDIT: however, this IMHO has nothing to do with any kind of Free Trade, NAFTA or other. If you, as a corp, wanna set up a call center anywhere in the world and pay for the routing of these calls, I dont see how trade barriers could slow you down.
Remster
QuoteQuote
Jobs with an education level of high school:
Entry level. Call center jobs are moving overseas. .
Is this true? Interesting... To where are they moved? (overseas - but where?)
My son worked as tech support for AOL for a while. They told him that they were moving all the jobs to India and that he should start looking.
They speak English. They are coached to not sound Indian and to use an American name. "Hello, this is Steve" not "Sridhar". Part of the training.
QuoteIf you, as a corp, wanna set up a call center anywhere in the world and pay for the routing of these calls, I dont see how trade barriers could slow you down.
It is the old "all politics is local" rule. Everyone is for "free trade" until they lose their jobs, then they scream. Software developed for the fed govt is supposed to be done in the US. However, the rest of the industry is left to flail.
You can't control call center traffic being moved offshore by trade barriers, but here is what I did. When I applied for my last loan, I told them that I would only deal with people face-to-face. I would come to their office.
benny 0
QuoteQuoteFree trade is wonderful in theory, but generally sucks ass in reality.
Why does it suck in reality?
If somebody does the same job cheaper, what's the reason to pay somebody else more?
I pay a lot of taxes because Finnish government wants to keep Finnish farmers busy. Some of 'em even get paid to do nothing.
If you can't compete in free market, you need to do something else.
Hmm, do something else, like? Move to Finland maybe? The reason global "free trade" sucks in reality is mainly because it isn't truly free. The EU for instance won't allow imports of US agricultural products because all you folk are afraid of big bad genetically modified veggies. I can guarantee you that US agribusiness would put Finnish farmers out of work in short order if you guys allowed that.
But, as far as the labor market is concerned, the only way that's ever free is if we eliminate all borders, so that if someone in India wants an American programmer's job at 1/6 the cost, said American programmer could just as easily move to India where cost of living is maybe 1/20 as much. But no, there are significant barriers to the mobility of the labor force.
Never go to a DZ strip show.
QuoteQuoteFree trade is wonderful in theory, but generally sucks ass in reality.
Why does it suck in reality?
If somebody does the same job cheaper, what's the reason to pay somebody else more?
I pay a lot of taxes because Finnish government wants to keep Finnish farmers busy. Some of 'em even get paid to do nothing.
If you can't compete in free market, you need to do something else.
Because instead of elevating those that do the job cheaper, it pulls everyone else down. Everyone bitches about the unions and how they get paid too much and its unfair that they demand higher wages. Well, guess what, I don't care what job you're doing. Everyone benefits from that. The standard of living in this country and around the world had gone up for the past 100 years. This is directly related to the organization and collaboration of the work force and their demands to be compensated proportionally to their contribution to the product or service they provide instead of letting one guy at the top keep all the profits for himself.
It's called macroeconomics. Read some books about it and then you'll understand why.
The bottom line is, if there are two people producing the same product, and one is using cheap foreign labor, do they reduce the cost of their product to the consumer? No....they don't. They charge whatever the market will bear. But now they're able to line their pockets further while exploiting children and downtrodden people for their own profit.
Free trade is fine, as long as employers are required to pay the same wages no matter where their workers are. That way the best person for the job, not the cheapest bidder, gets it. That, my friends is the American way. That the harder you worker, the more you succeed. Not the cheaper you work, the more you have the ability to survive.
PeteH 0
Quote
Hmm, do something else, like? Move to Finland maybe?
Maybe.
I'd have no problems moving to another country.
Quote
The reason global "free trade" sucks in reality is mainly because it isn't truly free.
That's true.
Quote
The EU for instance won't allow imports of US agricultural products because all you folk are afraid of big bad genetically modified veggies. I can guarantee you that US agribusiness would put Finnish farmers out of work in short order if you guys allowed that.
And I can guarantee that all farmers in Finland and USA would be out of jobs if USA and EU allowed cheap 3rd world agricultural products in their markets.
I'd like to see that happen, 'cos I really don't see the point that I must pay higher price (includes taxes) for bread just 'cos Finnish farmers don't want to anything else.
You pay higher price for American food too, 'cos US goverment also protects local farmers.
Quote
But, as far as the labor market is concerned, the only way that's ever free is if we eliminate all borders, so that if someone in India wants an American programmer's job at 1/6 the cost, said American programmer could just as easily move to India where cost of living is maybe 1/20 as much. But no, there are significant barriers to the mobility of the labor force.
True.
That's what I'd like to see, world without borders. I know that's an utopia, but I think that's only reasonable way to deal with world trade.
Borders are ok if they are totally closed, but if something goes through, everything should.
PeteH 0
Quote
Because instead of elevating those that do the job cheaper, it pulls everyone else down.
I know that. American or EU workers lose their jobs 'cos companies move into countries with cheaper salaries.
These companies however make lots of money with this.
Quote
Everyone bitches about the unions and how they get paid too much and its unfair that they demand higher wages. Well, guess what, I don't care what job you're doing. Everyone benefits from that.
The standard of living in this country and around the world had gone up for the past 100 years. This is directly related to the organization and collaboration of the work force and their demands to be compensated proportionally to their contribution to the product or service they provide instead of letting one guy at the top keep all the profits for himself.
It's called macroeconomics. Read some books about it and then you'll understand why.
The bottom line is, if there are two people producing the same product, and one is using cheap foreign labor, do they reduce the cost of their product to the consumer? No....they don't. They charge whatever the market will bear. But now they're able to line their pockets further while exploiting children and downtrodden people for their own profit.
You know why that's possible?
Because it's American or EU company behind the product. 3rd world companies make same stuff and would sell 'em cheaper, but our governments protect these companies (that are owned by their friends or even themselves) and put tolls and tariffs for "foreign" products that are actually the same product with different name.
With partly closed markets companies can also sell same stuff with different price in different countries.
They do this with CDs, DVDs, software etc.
You pay as much as you can.
Quote
Free trade is fine, as long as employers are required to pay the same wages no matter where their workers are. That way the best person for the job, not the cheapest bidder, gets it. That, my friends is the American way. That the harder you worker, the more you succeed. Not the cheaper you work, the more you have the ability to survive.
That kind of regulations are against the idea free market. If somebody does the same job cheaper, he gets it. If somebody does it better, it's not the same job and he/she deserves more money for it. Then the employer (and customer) has a choise to make: Do I want shitty quality for cheaper price or good quality for higher price.
And eventually in totally free global market the salaries would be close everywhere. That would be mean less money for workers in America and EU, and more money for workers in India etc. This would also force living costs closer.
I'm fine with this kind of scenario, but most people don't see the big picture.
Bush also has plans to extend Nafta to the rest of central and south america
This article is not 100% correct as while I'm not sure when Mexico joined NAFTA, it was originally just Canada (Mulroney) and the USA (George Bush Sr). I'm sure you have some negative issues with Canada, but it appears that it's more of a Mexico thing? Of course you can't just blame NAFTA, as there are plenty of jobs being farmed out to China, India and other countries.
Try not to worry about the things you have no control over