billvon 3,120 #26 February 18, 2004 >I don't really think you can impose democracy. "Democracy imposed from without is the severest form of tyranny" - L. Biggle Jr. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #27 February 18, 2004 Quote QuoteI have a VERY distinct recollection of a campaign statement by GWB on the topic of nation building and how we weren't going to do it. Would you prefer that since we've deposed Saddam Hussein that we simply pick up our toys and leave? - Jim Bush breaks HIS campaign promise and it's MY job to come up with a way out of the mess? How do you figure that out? Statements by Bush and his cronies that are belied by his subsequent actions or facts that came to light later (just a sample): No nation building Smaller government "Compassionate Conservative" small, short-term deficit 1.7M jobs to be created in 2003 Uranium from Africa "We know where they are" Iraq can deploy its WMDs in 45 minutes It may take 1 month, .... or six "I can eat a pretzel without choking" Veterans' Care No Child Left Behind These trailers are mobile WMD laboratories. 45 percent of all of the dividend income goes to people with $50,000 (It's actually less than 15%). Iraq is "six months away from developing a [nuclear] weapon.". I've got more!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #28 February 18, 2004 Quote"I can eat a pretzel without choking" Oh shit dude...was on the phone with my boss and just guffawed in his ear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #29 February 18, 2004 QuoteQuote"I can eat a pretzel without choking" Oh shit dude...was on the phone with my boss and just guffawed in his ear. Always pleased to be of service... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #30 February 18, 2004 QuoteIt's not like the conflict between these people just started or is a response to our presence, our presence may exacerbate it but it's been going on for ages. Thinking that we can "drag them kicking and screaming into this century" and make them accept it is ludicrous. I note that you ignored my previous question:"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" It's easy to criticize what is. It's a lot harder to come up with a better idea. Do you think we should just pull out and let all the factions go about commiting massacres against each other? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #31 February 18, 2004 QuoteBush breaks HIS campaign promise and it's MY job to come up with a way out of the mess? How do you figure that out? I didn't ask you to figure out a way to get out of the mess, I asked you (and really, I thought it was a pretty simple question) if you prefer that since we've deposed Saddam that we simply pick up our toys and leave. Well? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #32 February 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt's not like the conflict between these people just started or is a response to our presence, our presence may exacerbate it but it's been going on for ages. Thinking that we can "drag them kicking and screaming into this century" and make them accept it is ludicrous. I note that you ignored my previous question:"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" It's easy to criticize what is. It's a lot harder to come up with a better idea. Do you think we should just pull out and let all the factions go about commiting massacres against each other? No John, if were King, better yet if I were president of the United States, I'd realize that we got ourselves into this and we now have a reponsibility to find a reasonable way out. I'd immediately go to the UN and all the nations we pissed off when we took this thing on in the first place and I'd ask for their forgiveness. I'd promise to relinqush control of Iraqi assets and open the bidding process for the contracts to build Iraq to the world. I'd keep said bidding process out in the open. I would also realize that it will be necessary to leave some of our boys there for possibly a long time to come, but I'd take every step possible to reduce that number ASAP. I'd stop waisting time and taxpayer dollars on issues of weather or not one man can call another man his wife, covering up the tit on a statue meant to represent liberty, and renaming a food. I can go on, if you like? Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #33 February 18, 2004 QuoteIt's easy to criticize what is. It's a lot harder to come up with a better idea. Do you think we should just pull out and let all the factions go about commiting massacres against each other? John...I think what you're not grasping is taht most of us are neither saying we know what to do to fix the current situation nor that we should just pull out. What we're saying...and most of us had said prior to us going into Iraq, is that this is exactly what would happen. Go look at some posts from last Jan-Feb. What's inconceivable to us is that GWB said that things would be different than they really are. He was either wrong, or deliberately lied. Either way, his supporters ralied to his defense and blasted us for saying things would end up this way....saytin gthat we were just criticising because we're liberal Clinton lovers. The bottom line is, the realistis among us, saw through his lies from the start, saw him drag this country to war based on his lies, and had to contend with being called unpatriotic and harborers of terrorists because we could see the writing on the wall. It's time to face facts...the guy doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. He may be doing things for teh right reasons, but he's doing them the wrong way. He's incompetent, dishonest, and I honestly think, borderline retarded. It just amazes me that not everyone sees how obvious this is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #34 February 18, 2004 >"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" As in right now? No good answer to that. It's like getting really drunk, having sex with someone you can't stand, getting her pregnant, and having her tell you when she's six months pregnant. And she wants to get married or she will sue you for palimony. How do you solve that problem? A better answer is to not get yourself in the situation to begin with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #35 February 18, 2004 QuoteU.S. Commander Sees Troops Staying in Iraq for Years ...anyone else wanna file this headline under 'No shit?' ~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #36 February 19, 2004 Quote>"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" As in right now? No good answer to that. It's like getting really drunk, having sex with someone you can't stand, getting her pregnant, and having her tell you when she's six months pregnant. And she wants to get married or she will sue you for palimony. How do you solve that problem? A better answer is to not get yourself in the situation to begin with. Well, if it were THAT easy....... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #37 February 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt's easy to criticize what is. It's a lot harder to come up with a better idea. Do you think we should just pull out and let all the factions go about commiting massacres against each other? John...I think what you're not grasping is taht most of us are neither saying we know what to do to fix the current situation nor that we should just pull out. What we're saying...and most of us had said prior to us going into Iraq, is that this is exactly what would happen. Go look at some posts from last Jan-Feb. What's inconceivable to us is that GWB said that things would be different than they really are. He was either wrong, or deliberately lied. Either way, his supporters ralied to his defense and blasted us for saying things would end up this way....saytin gthat we were just criticising because we're liberal Clinton lovers. The bottom line is, the realistis among us, saw through his lies from the start, saw him drag this country to war based on his lies, and had to contend with being called unpatriotic and harborers of terrorists because we could see the writing on the wall. It's time to face facts...the guy doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. He may be doing things for teh right reasons, but he's doing them the wrong way. He's incompetent, dishonest, and I honestly think, borderline retarded. It just amazes me that not everyone sees how obvious this is. Kevin, THIS thread encapsulates all you said. It is from this time last year. A lot of Bush apologists who still post here wrote stuff they must regret now. It's nice that Sangiro doesn't delete posts.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #38 February 19, 2004 QuoteQuoteI note that you ignored my previous question:"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" It's easy to criticize what is. It's a lot harder to come up with a better idea. Do you think we should just pull out and let all the factions go about commiting massacres against each other? I'd immediately go to the UN and all the nations we pissed off when we took this thing on in the first place and I'd ask for their forgiveness. I'd promise to relinqush control of Iraqi assets and open the bidding process for the contracts to build Iraq to the world. That's all you've got to stop the strife and violence in Iraq? To let France and Germany bid on contracts? I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that will solve anything. QuoteI would also realize that it will be necessary to leave some of our boys there for possibly a long time to come, but I'd take every step possible to reduce that number ASAP. What if that puts the ones left behind in even greater jeopardy? Quote I'd stop waisting time and taxpayer dollars on issues of weather or not one man can call another man his wife, covering up the tit on a statue meant to represent liberty, and renaming a food. I can go on, if you like? Yes indeed, I think you can "go on", but not in the sense you meant it. I'm always amazed at the ability of the Bush-haters to go off topic to take opportunities to bash him for things irrelevant to the discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #39 February 19, 2004 QuoteJohn...I think what you're not grasping is taht most of us are neither saying we know what to do to fix the current situation nor that we should just pull out. What we're saying...and most of us had said prior to us going into Iraq, is that this is exactly what would happen. Okay, great, all you guys were like Nostradamus and knew exactly what was gong to happen, before it happened. But that's all "water under the bridge" now. It no longer matters what you would have done differently two years ago. The question I put to you is; what would you do [now] to extricate us from Iraq, without that country devolving back into mass violence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #40 February 19, 2004 Quote>"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" As in right now? No good answer to that. It's like getting really drunk, having sex with someone you can't stand, getting her pregnant, and having her tell you when she's six months pregnant. And she wants to get married or she will sue you for palimony. How do you solve that problem? A better answer is to not get yourself in the situation to begin with. Right. Everyone wants to bash Bush for what is going on, but no one has a better plan of action. So, that's kind of cheap and meaningless. 20-20 hindsight is wonderful. But no one has a crystal ball in advance to predict what will happen. The question is what to do [now]. Not what we should have done based upon perfect 20-20 hindsight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #41 February 19, 2004 QuoteA lot of Bush apologists... Um, don't look now, but your bias is showing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #42 February 19, 2004 QuoteQuote>"If you were King, what action would you take in Iraq to solve the problems?" As in right now? No good answer to that. It's like getting really drunk, having sex with someone you can't stand, getting her pregnant, and having her tell you when she's six months pregnant. And she wants to get married or she will sue you for palimony. How do you solve that problem? A better answer is to not get yourself in the situation to begin with. Right. Everyone wants to bash Bush for what is going on, but no one has a better plan of action. So, that's kind of cheap and meaningless. 20-20 hindsight is wonderful. But no one has a crystal ball in advance to predict what will happen. The question is what to do [now]. Not what we should have done based upon perfect 20-20 hindsight. It isn't hindsight. It's EXACTLY what a lot of us said a year and more ago.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #43 February 19, 2004 >The question is what to do [now]. Not what we should have done >based upon perfect 20-20 hindsight. It was actually foresight. Hindsight means you don't see the answer until later; foresight is when you predict the answer beforehand. In any case: what do we do now? 1. ADMIT MISTAKES! You're right; we're not perfect. Go to the UN and say "you know what? We screwed up. We were wrong about WMD's, and we made a bit of a mess of Iraq." 2. Ask for help. Ask the UN to take over administration of Iraq. Offer to put US troops under UN control if other countries will match our soldiers troop for troop. Bring half of them home. 3. Offer incentives. Allow other countries to set up oil and gas contracts with Iraq. Countries with a financial stake in Iraq will also have a vested interest in seeing a stable government set up. 4. Allow the Iraqis to set their own timetable for elections and constitutions. Allow outlying ethnic groups to break away from Iraq if they so choose, especially before a government is in place. 5. Once they don't want us there any more, leave. You cannot enforce peace if the reason there is war is your presence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #44 February 19, 2004 Quote That's all you've got to stop the strife and violence in Iraq? To let France and Germany bid on contracts? I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that will solve anything. I realize that I didn't completely make myself clear, John, let me take the leap of logic that my statements implied for you. I would internationalize the efforts in Iraq, I'd involve the UN and whatever Muslim nation who were willing in order that it wouldn't look to the people of Iraq like a "white man's invasion". Quote What if that puts the ones left behind in even greater jeopardy? Again, international force, international peace-keeping efforts. Not just us and a few nations we bribed despite the sentiments of their own citizens. Do you really have a problem with making this an international effort? Even if it means we can't just give contracts to whomever we please? Quote I'd stop waisting time and taxpayer dollars on issues of weather or not one man can call another man his wife, covering up the tit on a statue meant to represent liberty, and renaming a food. I can go on, if you like? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes indeed, I think you can "go on", but not in the sense you meant it. I'm always amazed at the ability of the Bush-haters to go off topic to take opportunities to bash him for things irrelevant to the discussion. Well, considering that we're losing more than one solider a day over there, I think they have more important things to think about. Considering how much that operation is costing I would prefer they weren't allowing frivolous things such as this to add to the deficit. It all ties in John, it's just been one long line of wrongly motivated and incompetent decisions. It's gonna take a long time to make up for the damage these people have done. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #45 February 19, 2004 Quote>I guess "small war" doesn't mean major hostilities since they've >been over for a year. It will also be interesting to see what side the US will take if Kurdistan opposes joining an incipient theocracy in Baghdad. Will we force an independent, pseudo-democratic province to put itself under Islamic rule? That would create an instantaneous meltdown on the part of the Iranians and the Turkish....they both have sizable minorities in their countries . The real solution to that is a real Kurdistan...if you refer to this website.. and note the current borders....eeesh...like I said the Turks and Iranians would go ballistic since the prospect scares them. http://www.geocities.com/kurdistanshereen/ What we have here......is a fail URE to communicate Next regional conflict anyone?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #46 February 19, 2004 Quote Considering how much that operation is costing I would prefer they weren't allowing frivolous things such as this to add to the deficit. Multiple fatalities per day is frivolous? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,120 #47 February 19, 2004 >Multiple fatalities per day is frivolous? No, spending money on preventing gay civil unions is frivolous when there are more important things going on, like US soldiers dying. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
benny 0 #48 February 19, 2004 Quote Quote Considering how much that operation is costing I would prefer they weren't allowing frivolous things such as this to add to the deficit. Multiple fatalities per day is frivolous? - Jim This is what we call using something out of context. Boys and girls pay attention. Some people use things out of context to attempt to make it look like a person said one thing when they meant another. Usually the person who uses something out of context is attempting to make the other party look bad. This is generally considered dishonest and unethical boys and girls, don't you grow up to be like this ok No, every dollar which is needed to keep those who absolutely have to be there should be spent (haven't I heard stories of soldiers having to by their own protective vests?). We should not be spending money on dicks tits and chips (fries) when it's needed elsewhere. Never go to a DZ strip show. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,150 #49 February 19, 2004 QuoteBan "signature lines"! I'm rather fond of mine. I'll change it soon, to one about 1.7M new jobs for 2003.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #50 February 19, 2004 QuoteIt's time to face facts...the guy doesn't know what the fuck he is doing. He may be doing things for teh right reasons, but he's doing them the wrong way. He's incompetent, dishonest, and I honestly think, borderline retarded. It just amazes me that not everyone sees how obvious this is. President Bush received a Master of Business Administration from Harvard Business School in 1975. After graduating, he moved back to Midland and began a career in the energy business. For a graduate of one of the most prestigeous MBA programs in the country you would think he could have run something right...somewhere along the line.. but facts is facts. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0228/ridgeway.php I will go with at the very least, incompetent as a good reason to fire him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
